Support Your Local Framebuilder
I won’t hold liking cats against you, but if you don’t like dogs, you’re dead to me. Some things aren’t left to opinions, like whether Star Wars is good or not. You’re free to be an outlier – and I loves me some outliers and I loves me a rebel – but in some cases, being an outlier doesn’t make you clever. It just makes you wrong. Also, the Laws of Physics show that the more lightsabers you have in a movie, the better the movie. Except for Episode I and The Matrix, two anomalies which balance each other out.
Similarly, loving carbon bikes is no crime. They are light, they are stiff, and many (most) are beautiful. My stable is filled with them. But a bike handbuilt by an artisan in a small workshop is something different altogether, and each one’s singular beauty is not a matter of opinion, unless you’re comfortable being wrong. I only have one so far, and it’s the custom steel I had made by NAHBS founder, Don Walker for my failed Hour ride last summer. (I’m planning a rematch with Weather this coming June.)
At this point every bike I own is custom, if only the paintwork. But even then, having a hand in how the bike is finished bonds you to the machine in a way that off-the-peg bikes simply can’t. And my Walker, even though I don’t ride it as much as a practical bike (you know, one with gears and brakes) every time I climb on it, I can feel its magic. There is something about custom in general and steel in particular that feels uniquely magnificent.
We’re in a crisis, my fellow Velominati. The North American Handmade Bicycle Show is only a few weeks away and I just heard from Don that many of the builders who have been stalwarts of the event are struggling to the point that they can’t afford to attend, much less keep a booth there. People aren’t buying bikes as much as they were, apparently, and the bikes that are being bought aren’t custom, handmade ones. We’re buying kittens, not dogs. Cyclists are watching Star Trek, not Star Wars. It’s a fucking disaster.
This isn’t a call to go buy a custom frame, we aren’t made of money. But it is a reminder that there are giant corporations behind some bikes, and there are individuals behind others. And if you’re in the market for a bike, I’m asking you to remember that. And if you aren’t in the market for a bike but love looking at them, I’ll be at NAHBS this year (in godforsaken Salt Lake fucking City no less) and I’ll look forward to seeing you there.
Vive la Vie Velominatus.
@Major VVald
I can ride my alloy CAAD10 with HED+ wheel set mounted with 28’s set at low p and that bike will ride plenty smooth.
I had a skinny piped steel CX bike that definitely provided mucho style points. I really liked that bike. Style points provided especially when the skinny piped down tube failed on a rough hit and I went sailing over the bars in to mud and it was all captured in high def photo burst.
see the down tube buckling here… that’s beginning of an oh sh** this is gonna hurt slo mo moment
Star Wars is awesome. It’s also complete crap. Discuss.
can’t stand dogs but I’m highly allergic to them
and this wasn’t a custom frame for me, but it probably was for someone and I want to show it off all ready for the Welsh Track Champs, team sprint and kilo!
@RobSandy
Pic didn’t post…
@the Engine
Look at a Sarto custom carbon?
@Randy C
Great Odin’s Raven! I had something similar happen at Sea Otter one year – bottom of a long hill the Rockshox Judy (100mm of plush, remember those?) hit deep sand and fully compressed and I stopped right there. I blame myself for poor positioning – not far enough off the saddle. Did Ritchey replace the frame (always lusted after a swisscross)? Seems like you were using it as intended so they should have. I did go with a heavier frameset for that reason – I’ll let you know how it works out.
@Buck Rogers
As I understand it, the scarcity of frame builders for this kind of project has less to do with the certification needed for 753 but more likely the large minimum orders that builders are obliged to place with Reynolds for the tubing as it is manufactured only to special order. 753, like 725 tubing, is heat treated and so the silver brazing technique required for lug joints is much the same for both because you have to avoid annealing the heat treated alloy when applying heat to the joint. Hence, technically a 725 certified builder should be able to build you a 753 frame if, and this is the kisser, if they are prepared to source the tubing for you. You may wish to consider 725 (a chrome-moly alloy) as a more practical alternative to 753 (manganese – moly) as the mechanical properties are very similar. As a consequence, 725 has pretty much superseded 753. A 725 tubed frame is a ride of serene beauty.
@Oli
@Oli – always love that Benson. Class. Right on with build Quality. Ditto Bike Fit. In the end, what matters is where the rider is placed between the wheels. All materials can perform in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. I ride 3 bikes regularly: Canyon UltCF SLX (carb), Custom Cyfac Prox(alum), Custom Bixxis (steel). When I look at my solo training data, you can’t tell which bike I was on. The Canyon is close to 2 pounds lighter, so feels quicker starting from a stop light…..but I can’t remember any stop lights or stop signs in races. I do race on the Canyon, but that’s simply because it has a crash replacement.
PS: Don’t feed the trolls spouting gospel from the pages of Bicycling Magazine.
@sowtondevil
I actually found a set of NOS NIB full frame building 753 Reynolds kit from the early 1980’s, which is perfect. Looks like it was made yesterday.
The same stuff the LVC 1985 Hinault bikes were made out of.
So the frame building kit is not the issue, just a builder who will weld and chrome it!
“If you don’t like dogs, what do you like…?”
Bob Walkenhorst
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CRBo18Q7BwM
@Oli
I live in Iceland, so small town is probably not far off (the entire population of the country is about 330.000)…
I am talking about good carbon frames, not the cheapest possible, apologies if that was not clear. Of course you can get crap in any material. The comparison I meant to make is a high quality, correctly fitted carbon frame that suits your riding style and other needs vs. any steel.
There is no disagreement here however:
There’s no bike finer than the one you’re riding.
Can’t beat seeing this:-
Turn into your dream bike at the hands of a skilled craftsman…
@fignons barber
It seems that’s me. This is certainly not meant as trolling, in any case trolling does not seem to work on this site which is part of the reason I keep reading it. The numbers for weight, how much the frame flexes under power and how much aerodynamic drag it produces matter a lot for how fast a given rider on a given day with a given effort will travel on the bike. That is not really up for debate. It is also not much of a stretch to point out that steel really struggles on these factors against a good carbon frame (again, I’m not talking about all carbon frames here, I’m talking about high quality ones). I’m sure the best steel frames can get close on weight and stiffness, and I’m sure they’re great frames, but that still leaves out aero and at that point even top of the line carbon always seems to cost much less.
Opinions do not form in a vacuum of course, I only started really riding when I discovered Strava (if it’s not on Strava it didn’t happen!) and my primary motivation in everything, not just cycling, is competition. That is just who I’ve always been, say what you will about Strava and big Garmin computers but these things actually keep me riding a lot more than I otherwise would. Add to that a very limited budget and extremely limited time to ride and then bikes that are neither maxed for racing (within my budget) nor useful for commuting in the snow or on ice become something to ignore (I know, that’s heresy on here!).
In any case I kind of felt the article needed a response from someone who genuinely disagreed with the bike related point and not just dogs or Star Wars…
@Quasar
Just one more thing to point out, and now I’m quoting myself (recursion for the win!), my point was not that steel bikes were crap (they’re not, obviously) but that they don’t interest me for the reasons that I mentioned. No more than that.
@Randy C
Holy crap, that could have been very bad. Were you OK after the crash?
@Teocalli
Seen a couple of Stache’s set up for long range riding, both owners rated them highly, I bought this years Emonda, Ultegra 11 speed, Vision Metron 40 carbon wheelset, sold the Ultegra and replaced with DA9100, very pleased with the result at a reasonable price.
@Quasar
Ride an Merckx MX-Leader or keep your mind shut.
@Randy C
You’re fortunate that those tubes are designed to bend on hard impact. And fortunate you experienced a bright moment of learning here { as pictured }.
@the Engine
Transcontinental Race – bloody hell! (Quite envious really!). Well I have the bike for it now…
@universo that wasn’t my first lap thru the obstacle and plenty of racers were riding it. I’m not thinking same as you here. Something a little more solid might just plowed straight ahead and I’d have rode on out ?? But when the head tube angle instantly goes from 71 to 90+ as front wheel stops and rider keep going forward ?? No chance. Anywho… who knows?
@Major VVald I didn’t deal directly with Ritchey and left that to my LBS (my team sponsor). They assigned rider error and offered small % crash replacement. I’m an engineer by training and specifically a metallurgist having had many years in steel failure analysis and claims and warranty before moving on to sales mngmt. We’d have to cross section the tube to see how far the butt extends in to tube and just where it folded. Ritchey apparently had no interest in checking it out/no interest in return according to my LBS. I did not replace and went with alloy CAADX to replace instead. I know what my gut tells me. The C fork sure was solid after all ! And levered all stress right in to down tube. And yes, go hvy duty steel w/cross bike. The Ritchey was very cool bike and gorgeous when built up but the whole skinny tube thing had me thinking… I had a 105 FD and was always fine tuning to prevent the chain rub when standing on pedals and under power. I’d put my daughter on one as she goes 100lbs. But I race at 168lbs and well…
@Quasar I was fine and had my mtn bike (w/C rigid fork and CX tires) in pits, not far from me, and completed race. I endo’d in to squishy mud ! And entirety of event was caught frame by frame. Was classic.
And like I said, the Ritchey sure was a gorgeous bike… how can ya not love the classic lines of steel framed bikes? When I first built it up I rode and raced a pile of dirt roads on it (pictured here) before swapping the front rings to smaller CX for season.
@Frank
When trawling through the e-dungeons, I noticed that you changed your wheels but also your bars (and the bartape…). What was there no to like before? What gear do you ride now?
Rule #8 poses many challenges in the way it is written. Also the Dutch translation is rather poor; I thought that white bar tape with a black saddle is a no-go, but am glad to see that it is apparently OK to do so. Note: my orange track bike has a white saddle.
@Quasar
Right! This is EXACTLY why I am building out of early 1980’s 753 Reynolds.
Not b/c it is the best/fastest/strongest/whatever steel there is out there but because it is exactly what the 1985 LVC team rode. I want it for the Eroica/nostalgia.
Hell, I am 45 years old with 5 young kids and a full time job. I have no time to get in any amount of training for a race.
I ride as much as I can but when I ride, I ride for the open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at my wrist, and the wind in my hair. Not to crush my enemies, see them driven before me and to hear the lamentation of the women!
@Stuart Fairhurst
Wow! THAT is awesome! Cradle to the grave … hell conception to the grave for you!
@Quasar
The problem with this argument is that YOU are 100 times more aero drag than either frame. Nothing cracks me up more than an aero’d out bike with a nice “comfy” upright riding position. Except old guys on TT bars above the seat. Marketing parted these fools from their money.
My #1 is a completely modern lugged Italian steel bike. I also have a Carbon bike issued to Griepel’s team a few seasons back. The steel bike’s headtube is about 30mm lower than my carbon bike of equivalent size and the carbon steed is aggressive by modern standards. I’ve set plenty of PRs on Strava segments on the steel bike on both climbs and on the flats. I can put out the power to flex either frame. I’ve ridden a bunch of bikes over the years and the modern hollow crank has made the biggest difference in terms of reducing BB flex. It’s far more noticeable than the difference in material around the bottom bracket in my experience.
But why you owe it to yourself to ride high quality steel isn’t the speed, it is the feel. High end steel provides feedback from the road surface in a way that inspires confidence when deserved, without the vibration grating on your nerves.
At its best, carbon can provide a great ride, no doubt. At its worst it can produce a numb ride or unbearable chatter. To me, the GTR team is one of the best carbon bikes I’ve ridden (I have a feeling a C60 would change my mind), but it is no match for the ride quality of the Master.
@Buck Rogers
And that is nothing but awesome, there is of course more than one way to enjoy this sport/game/lifestyle/<insert own choice of description>.
@GoldenGorilla
I said “properly fitted” carbon, and I meant that to include the same geometry or at the very least allowing the same riding position. Yes, the rider is a much bigger factor but if you are racing you will of course have sorted clothing and riding position properly already. That is why I stressed the difference being between steel and the right carbon frame for you.
As for feel, which I’m well aware is one of the main reasons people ride steel frames, that does not interest me, beyond the ability to keep riding as long as I want to. Racing speed does.
@asyax
Very nice Jaegher! What size Vittoria G+’s are they? 27mm on a Belgium?
I think what I’d talking about just now is the bike as the proper tool to do the job.
Even with a modded off the peg bike I’m going to get a sweeter deal on a warrantied piece of kit than I will if I’m putting it together from scratch.
This thing has to do 4,000kms in a onner without putting a foot wrong and I’ll take reliability and comfort over a “just so” piece of detailing any day of the week. It’s also the case that riding bikes in the dark on unpaved roads in forests in Romania isn’t going to be respectful of the latest electronic porn from Campagnolo.
However, as with the Spitfire MkXIV and P-51D, there’s no reason why a functional mass produced device shouldn’t look the tits.
I haven’t had the money yet to drop on a custom frame, but I do have a set of custom wheels from Cafe Roubaix and I agree with @frank completely on how they feel tremendous- even magical. Besides being fantastic to ride, I can email the person who built them on advice for maintenance or simply to share pictures of where the wheels have traveled. And let’s be honest- having something that nobody else has in your town is cool as hell.
For a minute there I was WTF Romania then I remembered the Transcontinental.
I agree simplicity and reliability is your better option, although TBF that is one of the advantages of steel over carbon.
Have you read Tim Moore’s book about cycling on the route of the former Iron Curtain, on an old East German shopping bike. Not a race of course but it’s remarkable how things can keep going in all sorts of conditions.
@ChrisO
I’m in communication with Tim whom I hold in awe.
@HampCo
You are too modest to post some of your own work. I have lusted after a Strada Bianca for quite a while. I need to work harder so I can afford to order one.
http://www.hampsten.com/bike/strada-bianca/
Go look people, you won’t be dissapointed
@Randy C
@GoldenGorilla
I get what you’re saying, but the first thing that came to mind was my dad’s TT aero bars in a slightly upright position. The main reason has nothing to do with parting a fool from his money, but that he’s getting older (78) and he needs to give his wrists some relief. We did a century ride together yesterday. I had to wait for him a long time at the end), but it was still awesome to see him finish strong. I can only hope I’m still doing that at his age. VLVV
@Buck Rogers
I assume that you’re headed to one of the Eroica events on the continent, even the original.
If not, and you’re coming to Eroica California, drop me a line. I live nearby and would be happy to help with logistics.
@Lukas
Dayuum those are some nice bikes
@Buck Rogers
Such is best in life! May Crom be with you.
100% agree with you, Buck. Unless you’re super-competitive, and/or actually involved in competition, marginal gains are meaningless. What does it matter what you ride as long as it achieves the desired effect? Namely euphoria.
I intend to participate in my local track league this coming season on a vintage steel bike and I don’t care if I come last every week. At least I’ll have a great time doing it.
@DVMR
Good luck in your racing – Elinor Barker won the Amsterdam 6 days on a steel bike only last month, but as you say it’s enjoying the ride that counts more than frame material.
@ChrisO
Having just watched the Pedaled film of last years race I’d be inclined to agree about steel. I’d want something a Romanian farmer could weld well enough to carry on with.
@fignons barber
25mm Vittoria G+ on std HED Belgiums (not Plus), with latex tubes – they sound fantastic!
I have a pair of 28’s I will try and fit once this set wear out – I am hoping they will fit but will be tight.
Whilst the frame wasn’t exactly “local”, the wheelset was – Melody Wheels in Fremantle – White Ind T11’s on HED Belgiums 32R/28F.
I love the damping effect the steel has on the road surface, as opposed to my carbon bike, plus the thing corners scarily well – I’m very happy with it.
@Buck Rogers
No, I have a Kirk. But when I go in again for a custom Hampsten is on my shortlist.
@Buck Rogers
Buck there are more modern better alloys out there than 753.
@Oli
That is the tits, mate
@DVMR
Ha! Glad someone picked up on the quote!
Yes, I used to race competitively in my teens and 20’s but now, with my five kiddos and VMH, to train enough to race a bunch of guys in the Master class instead of spending the time hiking with my family, just does not make sense.
I still sneak in 3-4 hours on the average week, usually during lunch at work on my rollers in my office and the occasional long weekend ride, but rarely more.
Once all my kids are off to college, then maybe I’ll think about racing again for results but not for now.
@nathaniel spencer mork
You will NOT be disappointed! I’ll post pics of mine as soon as I get the wheelset next month!
@nathaniel spencer mork
Right! I COMPLETELY get this as I have said two or three times already in this thread (but I really cannot blame you for not noticing as I post about 20 times a day, eh?)
I want, and will have, a custom steel made out of 753 Reynolds because that is my fucking dream bike, an ACTUALLY built out of the real early 1980’s 753 Reynolds steel bike with all original bits from the early ’80’s for my Eroica La Vie Claire Hinault Eroica bike.
I know that I can get “better” steel but I cannot get “better” steel for the job that I will be using it for; i.e. riding a 1985 LVC Hinault bike at Eroica for the pure blissful feeling of knowing what it felt like to ride a 1985 LVC bike.
I have a lovely steel 2006 Lemond bike, I have a really awesome Merckx Scandium bike, I have a fucking amazing mind-blowing Hampsten/Eriksen Ti road bike (hell, I even have an original 1993 Team Motorola Merckx) but now I will have the dream bike of my youth.
So thanks, but there really is NOT any better steel for the job that I want.
I’ll just leave this here.
Not local, but handbuilt, steel, and Scapin is a relatively small company..
@Lukas
That truck looks awful but does adhere to Rule #25
Re discussiona about dyno hubs acceptable in this context?
@Bart
WOW! The stays and the fork and the polished silver/chromed lugs. Gorgeous. That fork! Beauty. Cheers
@nathaniel spencer mork
Thanks!