I have a friend who is borderline OCD. He’ll sometimes wash his hands dozens of times a day, doesn’t like sticky stuff, cats drive him to antihistamine hell and there is a place for everything, with everything in its place. This can be annoying, not only for those around him, but especially for himself. It’s not a great place to be.
The upside is his bikes are always meticulously maintained, fully Rule compliant, or they are in a state of tear-down having last week’s grease freshened up and each ball bearing individually polished. He’s gotten it under control quite admirably these days, and while a chip in the duco of his beautiful steel frame will still understandably piss him off, there’s not the slightest hint of sending it back to Italy to be re-sprayed by the 78 year old artisan who originally painted it, who inconveniently happened to retire in 1984. But you can rest assured the touch-up job he’ll do himself is of paintshop standard.
But I’ve never seen him muck around with his seatpost height. Not once it’s set, anyway.
This poses the question: did The Prophet have OCD? To this observer it seems so, if numerous viewings of Le Course En Tete and A Sunday in Hell are any reliable indicator. The guy was constantly fiddling with his seatpost height. His mechanic must’ve been ready to throw his hands in the air proclaiming “Merde, Eddy! I’ve measured it three times already! Why do you not trust me?”
It seemed to matter little to Eddy that poor Charly had adhered to the numbers scribbled on the lid of his toolbox, taken the slide rule and spirit level to every possible surface and angle, and used his impeccable line of sight to position the saddle just right, exactly where it was requested to be. “How’s that Eddy?” “Is perfect.” “Then why are you borrowing a spanner from RDV’s team car? Hmmm?”
If he wasn’t adjusting his saddle, he was adjusting his stem. If he wasn’t adjusting his stem, he was squirting water from his bidon onto his brakes. If he wasn’t doing that, he was simply laying down the law. The law of The Prophet.
Obsessive? Yes. Compulsive? For sure. Did it affect his ability to waste all comers? Not likely.
[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/brettok@velominati.com/merckx terryn/”/]
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@Bianchi Denti
Ha, no way sunshine. I'm the grade A midget around here.
70.2cm C/L BB spindle to top of saddle.
Meaningless I know in light of the previous comments re pedal stack height, crank length etc. (170's FTR).
Re Calmante's thoughts about formulas, when I first started racing, I was told that my saddle height should be set at 109% of my inseam measurement. I've recently checked, just out of curiousity, and I find that I'm pretty close to that.
@Souleur
Many people do measure it that way and, so long as you're consistent and have a steady hand and eye, it's a great method. Although in practical terms it is little different to measuring to the centre of the b/b and adding crank length. ;-)
@Calmante
@mouse
And there is a fair amount of art as well as science. Coupla years back i went and got a full video fit done - measured power on each leg, etc. etc. Changed everything from pedal width (X-factor? New Speedplays) to seat height etc. The result? The power (and I use that term in its broadest sense) I was "generating" in my new position was substantially higher whilst on the jig. Only problem was that it didn't feel great - persisted with it for about 4 months, riding like a busted arse. Got a new bike - got another fit (done more on look/feel). Instantly felt much better.
The conclusion - objective measures aint the be all end all.
@Souleur, @Calmante
Yeah, and physiology, pedalling style (Pantani, toe down or Lemond heel down, that will buy or steal a couple of cm's from your saddle height, spinner or grinder), and all those things you mention all come into play. So cool - position is one of my favorite things to obsess over as well.
Which is actually also why one of the things that drives me nuts when someone looks at a picture of a bike and starts saying things like, "wow, that's a lot of drop/not enough drop"...aside from the aesthetic, of course, which can be an independent observation from what the same person might recommend for the rider's actual position. But its impossible to say if the bars/saddle/whatever is right or wrong without knowing a lot about the cyclist - which we rarely do.
But Souleur, to your points about crank down etc, the whole system is rife with error. Seat tube angle will change everything, regardless of whether you put the crank down at 6 o'clock or parallel to the seat tube. Then get the crank exactly in the same potion every time and measure to the exact same spot on the saddle every time.
Not to mention that once you start riding, the reach and bar height will also effect the angles of your body and effect how everything feels (lots of stretch might, for example, tighten up your hips and make you feel higher/lower etc). Bike fit is about the whole package - all the aspects affect all the others.
It's fucked - completely.
I was taught to measure from the tip of the saddle to the center of the BB by my Cycling Sensei, but that also assumes the same saddle. But that's not bad if you already have the setback right because then you're measuring from a definable spot.
But this whole thing is why I bought two frames by the same manufacturer with the same geometry for the bikes I ride the most seriously (rain and racing bike). And even then, because the alu frame is hand made, its two fucking mils shorter in reach than the R3 through error. Fucking hell. Thankfully, I can fudge the seat by a mil and then its only one mil off and I only feel that for a few minutes when I switch bikes.
Even with this ultra-obsessive approach (same frame, geo, saddles, bars, pedals, crank length), its still fucking hard to get it identical since there is so much error in everything - you need a perfectly flat surface to plumb down the setback on the saddle, or if its not flat, you'll have to have the bike in EXACTLY the same spot with the same angle lean against the wall. It still took me tinkering for a month to get my positions on two identical bikes close enough that I can't really tell the difference.
But I can still tell the difference, when I try to. Like I said. Fucked. Completely.
@frank
All great points.
@Oli
Bah humbug. None of this is any replacement for superstition, poor eyesight and a dodgy measuring stick. Take your bike outside next time it rains, turn it 45 degrees to the south, mark where the shadow of the top tube junction falls on the ground and sacrifice a small woodland creature to the gods on that spot. Then adjust your saddle so it's not so low your knees hurt, and not so high your arse hurts.
Oh, man, I love this topic... Mostly because it truly is fucked, as frank said. I'm going to throw out another neat little tidbit; femur/tibia ratio. This is pretty interesting, and LeMond actually writes about it a bit in his book, in regard to a (possible) mechanical advantage to riders with longer femurs. However, no one really ever talks about how it affects saddle height. Here is a little drawing I made to illustrate this...
Mind you, this doesn't take into account pedaling style, as @frank mentioned, or foot size, which also exaggerates the effect of pedaling style.
@Calmante
BTW that also means same length crank, sta, pedals and saddle. Might change a few mm depending on the padding and condition of the saddle but it's for comfort more than anything. If it's uncomfortable change it, but that's the baseline I stick to when setting up bikes.
@frank
You may hate me for this, but based on those pics, the hoods on the Soloist look to be at a slightly higher angle than on the R3...
*runs, hides & expects a serious demotion to follow*
@Calmante
holy crap, after reading about femur/tibia ratio and all the other attention to measurements and ratios, i just might be (too bad, i'm sticking around anyway). i pedal, and then i adjust, and then i pedal, and then i adjust, and then, when i feel like i am getting the best out of body and bike working together, i use it. each bike i have is different, so each bike has it's own seat position. perhaps this isn't the right way, but it works for me, and i'm far too lazy and impatient to figure out "the right way", and too stupid to notice it's not optimal.