Frame Job
Last year we read that Philippe Gilbert is riding a 50cm (top tube of 535mm) BMC frame and he is 1.79m (5’10”) tall. Now it’s reported in Cyclingnews that Ritchie Porte’s Pinarello is a 46.5cm frame (top tube of 515mm) and Porte is 1.72m (5’8″) tall. He is no Nairo Quintana but somehow he is on Quintana’s old bike. Porte is just one inch shorter than the average Australian male, he is not short. And I used to think Sean Kelly’s bike was a tiny bit small for him.
Taylor Phinney was moved down from a 60cm to a 58cm frame when he joined BMC. He is 1.96m (6’5″) so it’s not a radical move, I can understand a very tall person wanting a less whippy frame, not that a BMC 60cm carbon frame is in any way loose. And they are getting the advice of people who know what they are doing, so there are some solid ideas here just ones I haven’t thought of.
What are the advantages of riding such small frames? Really, I don’t know and would like to understand. Ritchie Porte is 1.72m, rides a kid’s bike and has a 120mm stem on it, how is that a good bike fit? Has everything we learned about bike fitting been with a huge caveat: after many measurements and calculations, here is what frame you should ride but if you want to throw all that out the window and go down six centimeters, that works too. And yet, Mr Porte looks pretty good on it so tell me, oh wise ones, what am I missing?
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My two cents.
A proper bike fit should be based upon the individual’s ranges of motion. Hip flexors, hamstrings, neck , shoulders, and any pre-existing physical conditions are all important.
Muscle density is also counts for a lot. For example, even though he or she may be able to lay palms flat on the floor without bending knees, a rider with a winged scapula might not possess the strength to ride low in the drops when the bar tops are 6cm below the top the saddle.
Each rider is unique, and sadly mass produced frames don’t always offer the correct geometry for a particular rider. Gilbert rides such a small frame with such a long post and stem most likely because the one in his correct seat tube height has a top tube that is way too long for him.
This is a more common problem these days than it was prior to about 1999 or 2000, because back in the day most, if not all pros rode on fully custom frames. Today, most pros are under contract to ride stock frames provided by their bike sponsor. That works fine for many riders, not so well for others. Many athletes excel no matter what they ride. Still, who knows how much better they might be on the perfect frame.
It is rumored that the “Pinarello’s” raced by Indurain were built by Mondonico. Even pharmstrong insisted on racing his Lightspeed Blade in the TT until trek finally made a TT bike that he approved of. Every one of the bikes raced by LeMan during his professional years was built on a made-to-measure frame. Davis Phinney made no secret of the fact that he raced his entire professional career exclusively on custom Serrottas. The frame might have read Raleigh, or Huffy, but if it was assigned to Davis, it was in fact a made to measure Serrotta.
Times have changed, and in some ways, not for the better.
Also, there is the fact that many frames today are “compact” frames, and will be numerically different with more seat post showing, but the end result might be the same for a compact 48 as a traditional 54 or 56. Just as Dan R’s customer has discovered, there is some gold to be mined from the old Coni system, but there is a lot more to a bike fit than just seat tube length.
@artman
Good points all around. Something that gets missed by us, über fans, is that almost every pro rides stock frames, and those frames aren’t given to the teams that are riding them. They’re all purchased by the teams, albeit at near cost. I always assumed that the Pro Continental Teams got the frame sets for free until I started managing a elite amateur team in the PNW and got to know the frame reps from Giant, Cervelo, Ride Blue, Specialized to name a few. 2 seasons ago we got “pro pricing” from one of those companies and while the deal is out of sight, they’re not free.
So the racers are getting the bikes for free, but the team is actually paying for them in any case.
@Gianni I read that book back when it was first published. Good book, but don’t forget that at the time steel frames were lugged and used small diameter tubing. Most were either 531 or Columbus Sl, and the carbon frames of the day were also pretty rubbery when compared to most of today’s road racing frames.
Today’s materials have helped to create a whole new game. Today’s steel frames as well as carbon ones are much stronger, lighter, and stiffer than what was available then.
@scaler911
So true. From Specialized, “pro pricing” is similar to what they offer Employees on select models. They call it “Evangelist”. About %20 below standard dealer cost.
After reading many different books on bicycle fit, attending many seminars and classes, and having performed hundreds of fits between 1984 and today, I have to say that every system or method I’ve studied has it’s gold nuggets, but the most important thing for me to keep in mind is that each athlete is unique. In my opinion, there is no good that can come from attempting to mold every rider into the exact same shape, and no way to dictate stem length or seat post height based on rider height or any other single measurement alone.
Look at this guy. He was pretty fast. Little bit o’ quill stem showing there.
@artman
Bang on artman. I use a wide variety of source while doing a fit. If my Cinelli customer had not been happy with the small frame, I had a medium to build up. You just never know even with all the measurements in the world.
@scaler911 & @artman The dirty secret of the peloton is that many pros are still riding custom cut frames these days. Nearly 75% of Italian pros ride custom from Venezia (I will let you try and figure out who is there). With carbon, a custom builder can shape the frame to meet the sponsor’s frame design, but then tune it to the athlete. The team purchased bikes go to those that cannot afford or choose not to ride custom. And try explaining to your “shop sponsored pro” that no, Zipp does not give away wheels. Neither do I.
@artman
That’s my excuse from now on and I sticking to it….I must have a winged scapula! No idea what that is, but it explains everything!!
I know this is entirely unscientific, but is it not also possible that typical (recommended) frame sizes are for typical riders. Whereas if you’re a full time athlete working in a decent amount of strength and flexibility work you can be comfortable in positions that seem odd to us.
To undermine my standing as a cyclist, this suggestion is prompted by seeing people with very similar body measurements using very different equipment positions in a rowing (crew) boat, depending on their flexibility and history of injury.
@artman
Yeah, you are so right. I’m showing my age with this post. Merckx on a little steel frame and lots of aluminum post wouldn’t have helped him.
@Rowerboy Yes, you too. We are looking at pros in these photos when we are not pros and can’t be pros. No matter how badass we would like to be, we are not them. And as you point out, we can’t ride their geometries, well most of us can’t.
Speaking of unique bike fit –
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=442246399201004
@BaltoSteve
Add 4m of seat post and that’s basically the bike I ride.
@artman
And look at this guy who was faster than that guy. Slammed.
This photo reminds me that most of Indurain, Delgado, and LeMond’s bikes were actually built by Gueugneaud, who launched TVT after leaving LOOK and which eventually became Time. Most iconic carbon frames ever, if you ask me.
@Chris “Marginal difference between the 52 and 54″? Exactly. I brought home a 54 cm SuperSix EVO 5 a few weeks ago and I’m loving my new ride. I’m 5’8″ with a 30” inseam and the guy at the LBS went back and forth on the 54 v. 52. We tested both, on the road and in the shop on their CycleOps. He finally said, “I don’t think it’s going to matter”.
“But it’d be interesting to see how it would affect stability overall and whether it would make those handsfree moments significantly harder.” Not a problem, the ride is nicely balanced and very stable. Even on my ride today on Texas (21C and sunny today!) chip-seal, pushing a wind, and stretching, tearing open an energy gel and hydrating.
Post Script. I do have a long reach, but confess to one spacer on the head tube (hanging my head in shame). That will change soonest. In the meantime I’ll say three Hail Merycx.
@Minnesota Expat Did I just mis-spell Merckx? Gawd. First post and I mucked it all up. That has to put me into negative Velominati status.
@Minnesota Expat Useful feedback, thanks. The comment regarding stability was aimed more at the difference between the 54 and the 50 where the headtube angle is a whole degree sharper. That’s the only aspect of going from a 54 to a 50 that would cause any concern.
@Minnesota Expat
Hill reps. Lots.
I have two bikes – a steel Giordana and a Ridley Damocles carbone. They live together in the garage and although they are both ridden by the same rider their frame sizes are very different and thus they treat me in different ways vying for my affections. One day I know I will open a garage containing two machines lying on their sides (drive sides up), I’ll know what happened and (obviously) I’ll write a play about it that will start like this:
Two frames, both alike in dignity,
In fair Callander, where we lay our scene,
From ancient steel bike to new carbone,
Where oily chain makes civil hands unclean.
Upon the fatal saddles of these two foes
A pair of star-cross’d testes take their rest;
Whose misadventur’d piteous overthrows
Doth with their sensations bury their owners’ zest.
The fearful passage of their death-mark’d love,
And the continuance of their owners’ rage,
Which, but their bicycles end, naught could remove,
Is now the two hours’ traffic of our stage;
The which if you with patient ears attend,
What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend.
@ChrisO
Interesting theory. I’ve always been particular about how my clothes fit, needing them to fit well. I’ll find myself wearing the same few pairs of pants because they fit the best.
Being a Follower has only made this worse. Now that I only feel right in perfectly fitting race-fit kit, I need my clothes to be similarly tailored. I can’t stand baggy or loose clothes.
I haven’t worn jeans in around 15 years. Slacks, chinos, dress pants, pants. Denim just isn’t comfortable to me. Too heavy. I also have a small waist, big thighs, and skinny lower legs. Jeans never fit well.
And, I have two fears in life: being crushed in the Achilles by an old lady with a shopping cart at the grocery and wet denim.
FFS stop talking about seat tube sizing like it matters. YOU’RE PART OF THE V. TELL ME OF YOUR EFFECTIVE TOP TUBE. No fitter or frame builder worth their shit gives a damn about your current seat tube.
I’m 6’3″, mine’s 585, my stem is 120mm, and my bike fits wonderfully.
I am working on a custom steel bike with a frame builder now, likely will be a 592-593 ETT built around a 110mm stem for handling.
@ridebikesdrinkbeer
That would be a bit like you telling us your length without breaking it down.
@ridebikesdrinkbeer
Meaningless.
@the Engine
“Star-cross’d testes” is a most excellent trope, sir. And “bury their owners’ zest” is the very height of tragic poesie. Chapeau.
@ridebikesdrinkbeer agreed, but your mix of imperial and metric measurements is twisting my melon.
I’m 183cm tall with a fairly long reach. My road bike has ETT of 560mm with a 130mm stem. My cx bike is also 560mm ETT but with a 120mm stem. The road bike is campag so I prefer my hand position behind the hood slightly for the thumb shift etc. My cx bike is shimano so I prefer to be closer to the hood for shifting. It seems simple but it took me a while to arrive at this position.
The old ‘bar should obscure front hub’ fit principle has never worked for me. Does it work out for anyone?
@ridebikesdrinkbeer
That’s a classic post, mate. All caps berating of people talking about seatpost height, and then only giving your height in as justification for your frame fit.
Check out the stem on this young stud.
I’m 6 foot tall. All of my previous bikes were off the rack 56/56.5 frames with 100 or 90mm stems. I recently had a custom frame done by Hampsten and Steve fitted me to a 55TT and 56.5 ST with a 110 stem. Some other friends have custom frames and they are being sized to smaller frames with more stem (120mm+). This seems to be the trend with compact and traditional geometries.
I am female, 5’10” and ride a 50cm Look. My track bike is a small Look. Personally, when I am lower in the front (which is often the case with a smaller headtube), I can activate my hamstrings better – much like being in TT position. My track bike buts my bullhorns about 4″ above my front tire. I’ve tried the more “standard 53 and 54cm frames and they just feel too big.
@frank
And yet a slammed stem does not seem to be a requirement for winning multiple tours. Look at that stack height.
@the Engine
Give this man a badge. Some kind of badge. Sensational start to the play. Keep writing during the winter of your bicycle’s discontent.
@frank
And in imperial measurements at that…
@Gianni
This sounds familiar to me, I am sure I read similar prose scrawled on a bus shelter in Stratford this one time….
After spending my first five years on a road bike that was definitely too big, all my other bikes have felt great.
I recall that maybe last year Cadel was riding a 140mm stem. I wonder how the handling felt. I know if my stems on different bikes are more than 10mm different, things feel very, very weird when I ride them. I try to keep my reach pretty darn close on all my road bikes, which requires some tinkering.
@frank
Let’s be fair here Frank. The Boyer pic is from 1977/78; the Lemond from 1990. There was a huge world of difference in frame materials and geometry in that time. The height differential for Boyer between saddle and bars was likely a couple of inches, more for Lemond. Also, look at the difference in clothing/technology: Buyer is dressed (and riding a bike) that is virtually the same as riders from the 50s and 60s. Lemond has modern fabrics, cycling specific glasses, clipless pedals. Belive me, I’m not pickinbg favorites, but Lemond was a pioneer of all aspects of the sport, Boyer wasn’t. That being said, personal issues/incidents aside, Boyer was a true pioneer for US riders in the European peloton and does sterling work in Rwanda today.
@strathlubnaig
Wasn’t in the lavatory, was it?
@wiscot
Blah blah blah. How about this one then?
Sidenote: I had no idea Roger was so funny. This photo says, “Stephen Hawking might well be clever, but I can ride him off my wheel no problem.”
@ScottyCycles62
Really? I’m 6’2″ also, but ride a 58, slammed 90mm -13 deg stem…
@ridebikesdrinkbeer
Fair enough.
6’2″ – 582mm. I suppose the 565mm size one down would have worked too. That would have given me 120mm stem.
@artman @scaler911 @Dan_R was really cool getting a chance to chat to Darren Baum over pizza & beers last week when he was in town for the TDU.
Told a story about Cuddles in his Lotto days when Canyon couldn’t build a bike that gave him the fit he wanted. Cadel came back to Geelong & got Darren to put a couple of frames together for him & have them painted white, tucked them under his arm and flew back to Europe. He marched in to the Canyon offices and basically told them to make something to match, otherwise he’d get them painted up to look like Canyons & would ride them instead.
I still believe that proper fit still comes down to each athlete having his or her own needs based upon his or her own unique physiology.
A good example being the 10 or 11 cm stem, stack of headset spacer under the threaded locknut, and tall head tube on Big Mig’s bike in the post above versus the obviously long and low stem on Ullrich’s bike.
Frank, That LeMond picture is one of the coolest high speed descent shots I’ve seen. Good stuff. He’s one of the most skilled descenders of all time.
Liddy, That is a cool story. I love to read stuff like that. Cadel is definitely one of the best.
@PeakInTwoYears
Found it: “Ride more than thou goest” – whatever else he was up to, Shakespeare was riding a bike
@frank
Stem compliance is negated by sock length.
Can’t say I find the humor too funny – and I have a pretty big tolerance for that kind of stuff. Also, is it just me, or does RdV look uncannily like Museeuw in that pic?
All my internet formulas and LBS formulas point to a 56cm effective top tube frame.
My current steed is a 54cm as I felt my old 56 was too big.
Recently had a full fit by http://www.elbowsakimbo.com.au/ and apart from seat height adjustment ( went way up) and some shims in right shoe, frame size is perfect.
So much for formulas, however i guess the formulas are a starting point and one needs to then tinker to ones own body measurements.
I’ve been a bit lax in my lately in my reading, but I was riding the trainer last night, watching a race from last year on the laptop where Ryder Hesjedal was in a break, and when thinking to myself, “…man, that guy has some long ass arms….” I was immediately reminded of this article, so I thought I’d share a couple pix… What drew my attention was the long, negative sloping stem, and high saddle position, that at time it appeared as though Ryder might fall off the front of the bike… (or maybe that was me in post interval red zone delirium)
@Mikael Liddy
That’s awesome! “Here! Make this!”
@frank, that’s a great photo of a young Der Kaiser.
@Barracuda
So much for formulas, however i guess the formulas are a starting point and one needs to then tinker to ones own body measurements.
Yup. A nice place to start, but then it is all input/output from the rider
@VeloSix Straight elbows — the drops are too low for him.
I’m 6’2″ and ride a 54cm C40 with a 110mm stem. Weirdly it works. That stem is actually shorter than what I started out with too.
@lucky
A) This post is entirely useless without pics. B) That is odd, my C40 is a 59 with a 120mm stem. Specs out exactly the same as my 57 TeamMachine with a 120 stem. I too am 6’2″. We’re all snowflakes I guess.
@Marko
Ditto! pix plz!
@VeloSix Touché
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@Marko Having gotten the behind the seens sneak peek at that thing, Its a work of art!