In Search of Power
It’s no secret that I’m prone to riding in the big ring as much as possible, mostly on account of my not being a giant sissy. In accordance with the ISO Non-Sissy Standard, I also never read instruction manuals or ask for directions when lost. I make sure to only rarely ask my VMH to turn up the radio when Adele comes on, usually followed quickly by an ernest explanation of how I thought it was Metallica, and how Rolling in the Deep ripped off the opening to Enter Sandman. The record does show, however, that I occasionally fly into hysterics when surprised by an insect or amphibian – but that’s just good common sense.
Pantani’s in-the-drops climbing style has always impressed me, but he’s only one of the riders who won races going down in the drops looking for more power on the climbs; Jan Ullrich was often climbing in the drops as well as our mate Johan Museeuw – not to mention Richard Virenque and so did Frank Vandenbroucke. Looking at that list, I wonder if the UCI should explore adjusting the test for EPO to examine time spent climbing in the drops.
Riding the route of Liege-Bastogne-Liege with Johan last Keepers Tour, I noticed a pattern in his riding style. Whenever the gradient increased on a climb, instead of changing gear he just moved his hands to the drops and rose out of the saddle to casually push the same gear over the steep. It looked so easy, it was impossible to resist trying it myself. At first, there is a strange sort of sensation, like you’re dipping your nose into the tarmac. But then when you switch to the hoods, you notice an immediate loss of leverage. After practicing it, it becomes second nature.
Someone once told me that the key to going fast is to try to break your handlebars, and that’s just what I’ve been trying to do lately although I hope I’m ultimately unsuccessful. Since gleaning this trick from Johan’s riding style, I’ve been staying in the big ring longer and climbing out of the saddle in the drops, pulling hard on bars and feeling them flex. Its not always faster than spinning a low gear but it has the benefit of taking the load off your cardiovascular system and putting it on your muscular system – a handy thing if your form is missing something or you’ve got massive guns (which I don’t).
This has brought another notion to light: the lower the hand position, the better able you are to find the leverage you need to turn the pedals. This is one of the principle issues with the sit up and beg epidemic, apart from it looking crap and being less stable. But hand height seems to impact power; I’ve noticed that when I’m climbing on the tops, I can breath easily and I’m able to maintain a speed well, but acceleration is difficult. To accelerate or hold a pace up a steep gradient (which is almost the same as accelerating), I’m better served riding on the hoods where my position is a bit lower. But when I really need power, I go looking for it in the drops.
All this brings into question the current trend towards compact bars and flat hand positions between the tops and hoods, with the drops only a bit lower. Compare that to the deep drops ridden in the past, in the style of Eddy Merckx and Roger de Vlaeminck where the hoods were halfway between the tops and the drops. The modern bar shape and hood position seems to reduce the riding positions to as few as possible, while in the past, they were designed to provide as many as possible.
In any case, big sweeping drops look the business and I’m pretty sure they are in complete compliance with the ISO Non-Sissy Standard.
@Puffy
That’s very interesting, both for the article and for your charmingly naive idea that science and logic might have any impact on Frank’s pre-conceived and utterly unshakeable beliefs.
On the article it is certainly against the grain – not just in cycling but many strength-based sports believe that low-rep-high-resistance training builds muscle strength.
No doubt the experiment was properly done but I wouldn’t be prepared to jettison decades of empirical results on the basis of a single study.
Having said that it also highlights a disconnect in what Frank and others are talking about – powering up a short sharp climb in the big ring is fairly standard but it isn’t low cadence strength building. 10 or 12 times for 5 minutes each @90% power, and alternating with high RPM in between at similar power – that’s a low cadence workout.
@frank
They say the girth matters more than the length.
Can’t say I’d know, though.
I have been eyeballing the Ritchey neo- classic. nice classic bend in compact geo. While I would be classified as tiny by American standerds I don’t have small hands. on a compact now but the tighter bend is’t awesome for my mitt size. the Richtey seems a rounder( much better looking ) bend. Nice article, when I feel shitty and there is a 15% short ramp ahead getting in the drops and shifting to a bigger gear usually makes me much happier.
@frank
Who said anything about big-big and small-small? I’m talking about small-big! 39/23 will get you up a hill at 20 kph at 90 rpm. On a 7% grade that is something like 5-6 watts/kilo (according to an online calculator that may or may not be accurate). Sounds about right to me. Isn’t that in the elite class?
@geoffrey
Yes it is but the missing element in your post is duration (and weight).
Most anyone can do 5-6 w/kg for a short burst but I doubt anyone here would even come close to it on a 45 minute climb.
If they can they should be contacting an agent to arrange their pro contract.
@ChrisO
I put 20 minutes into the calculator. The usual number for FTP calcs. I put in a few different weights for the rider from 50 to 100 kgs hence the 5-6 range.
@geoffrey
Maybe a few would get close to 5 w/kg for 20 minutes, but then to calculate FTP (sustainable power for one hour) you discount by a further 5%.
On Andrew Coggan’s scale FTP of 5.2-5.8 w/kg is classed as Domestic Pro.
@ChrisO
I have to agree with your thoughts . All well conducted studies into strength training show that higher resistance training is more efficient in increasing strength gains . This comes with the proviso of using resistance high enough to approach the point of muscular failure . This would be much more difficult to achieve on a bike rather than in a gym where you can simply drop a barbell or dumbell instead of falling off your bike after 20 pedal strokes . In the quoted study subjects had to ride intervals of 6 minutes at 40 rpm which would equate to doing sets of an exercise in the gym for 240 repetitions : you wouldn’t find too many athletes or coaches advocating that particular regime for strength gains .
Interestingly though I think that Frank is on the right track . He often refers to how some positions or riding in the big ring feel better (and faster) . Have you ever wondered why riding a climb second time around feels easier (and faster) ? Is it that our guns have increased in power since the first climb ? Has our VO2 suddenly increased ? Or is it all “in the head” ? Is it The V ?
So I actually tried this climbing on the drops thing. Took 5 seconds off my best time on a steep (11%) 500m climb.
It’s weird – it uses different muscles to normal standing climbing. Normal standing climbing feels like climbing bouncy stairs. This feels more like pushing a heavy weight up a ramp.
@Puffy
This seems weird to me.
According to the abstract the “highly trained” athletes show considerable gains from moderate training, and the low cadence athletes showed nothing? That doesn’t make any sense at all.
I don’t have access to the complete study though.
@unversio
I think your analogy is flawed. Sprint starting is about falling over without actually falling over so to get maximum “fall over bucks” aligned with maximum “fall over prevention” both being in the direction of travel then you need the centre of mass (CoM) as far advanced from the feet as practical conversant with “gun power”. The practical consideration of this is take a person at age 25 staring from a set of blocks and apply the same CoM to Feet position and the same CoM rise to upright then at age 80 they will fall flat on their face! Anyway in cycling we do not need to project our CoM forwards as we move in the same was as we do running. The other analogy here is why toddlers sit down when they start trying to walk as they have not yet learned that they need to fall forwards before keeping pace with their feet. Power on a bike is completely different but just happens to require us to use legs that we normally use for running/walking.
@The Grande Fondue
Isn’t all this length stuff missing one fundamental point in setup (unless perhaps you are on a track bike). Our setup is our setup given an anatomical position for our given Leg/body/arm length combination suitable for extended periods on a bike. The fundamental reason that pros have long seat tubes and long stems is that they use frames that us average Joes would not be sold as they are too small for them. Interestingly I bought a second hand winter bike in the autumn and that was a good frame size for me set up for someone probably 6 inches taller. Riding that with a longer stem that was right for my setup just made the bike unstable as I ended up with my CoM too much over the front wheel. As soon as I shortened the stem the bike became massively more stable. This was most noticeable when standing on the pedals.
@Chris Transgression noted, never to be repeated. I await my penance. I love the sound of Italian, but please, no Lo Sceriffo!
@Daccordi Rider
You RACE with an EPMS? Is this a strava “race”???
@scaler911
Like most articles, I skipped the written part of your post @scaler911 but I must say that any article that elicits the posting of these photos (bar the last one) has earned its keep (Keeper)!
Fucking AWESOME photos!
@ChrisO
Low cadence interval training at moderate intensity may not improve overall cycling performance in highly trained veteran cyclists, but I’m pretty sure it improves low cadence performance in general, which, in the big ring, looks fantastic.
Let me rephrase that:
Low cadence interval training at moderate intensity may not improve overall cycling performance in highly trained veteran cyclists, but I’m pretty sure it improves low cadence performance in general, which, in the big ring and the drops–while climbing, looks fantastic.
@frank
I grab the hoods a la The Badger, and Coppi. I’ve had deep drop bars before, and that made it worse. I guess it’s that I feel like I can’t breathe all hunched over like that. It’s reflected in my normal riding style too: Belgian. I’m only ever in the drops to change position dying a long haul, or when winding up for a sprint. I also feel like I have better tactile sense of my “flight deck” that way.
@Teocalli
[ A Space Odyssey HAL 9000 voice ] “I understand now, Dr. Teocalli. Thank you for telling me the truth.”
@frank
It’s not so much that the stems are longer than advertised, just that 3t uses proper ISO specifications, despite their nomenclature. The reach, as measured perpendicular to the steerer, is 14cm, even though the extension (as measured along the stem) is around 15cm. This disparity becomes more pronounced with longer stems and more acute angles — basic Pythagorean theorem. Unfortunately, different manufacturers use different measuring standards. (Traditionally “length” only referred to the part of a quill stem that inserts into the steer tube.)
@pistard Do the ISO “angle B” and “extension” dimensions also apply to veteran riders?
@freddy
I believe there’s another brand of “V” to help with that…
@pistard
And we’ll just go with the reported angle B and extension. Reported extension doesn’t equal actual reach.
Back to the original topic of the massive power available climbing in the drops.I was actually imagining myself as Pantani and climbing in the drops when this happened :
just wondering if I can post again, here’s to nothing
well, it worked, I’m back…haven’t been able to post for….like months!
hi everyone! the broomwagon has relented
Accelerating from the drops, especially on a climb defintiely provides greater leverage. Another tip I once received from one who is far more educated than I in all things cycling: when standing up int eh pedals on a climb, click up one more gear and pound it, when you sit back down drop back to the lower gear and maintain a high cadence – repeat. Eventually, you may find that you are in a relatively higher gear in both circumsstances as the climb progresses. Worked well in this morning’s commute.
@San Tonio
Are those aluminum (and undamaged from any previous crash)? If so, wow!
@unversio
Glad to be of service…………….or not, as the case may be!
@VeloVita
One of my recurring nightmares, right there.
@Puffy
Did it hurt when they removed your sense of humor?
@frank since it’s pulled out of someone’s ass, it’s very painful (so I’m told). Getting it back in presents a whole new set of problems.
@geoffrey
You said “Gear inches are gear inches.”
@geoffrey, @ChrisO
Enough with the watts per kilos and stats! This isn’t RBR for fucks sake!
@Ccos
Which could account for having to stand and mash a big ring?
@Teocalli
I think it has more to do with the expense of a custom mold and the fact that bike companies make money selling bikes to Average Joes who want tall head tubes so they can still say they slam their stem, which means the Pros have to go to a tiny frame to get the bars low enough. Sagan rides a custom frame with the top tube of a 58cm and the head tube of a 51cm.
Interesting, I find the opposite with stem length – the longer the stem the more stable (you have to move the bars more to create the same amount of steer as you do with a shorter stem). But I am very flexible and I exercise my core; I use my core to control how much the front wheel is being weighted when seated and especially when cornering – the low bars I ride together with the stem length does tend to get overweighted if I’m not loading things up right.
@pistard
That makes sense – I would have assumed that the measure would be on the 0deg orientation but they did it on the 17 per the standard. Anyway, it works out for me, I like the extra cm!
@Souleur
Dude! Wherefuckyoubeen?
@The Grande Fondue
Both are helpful tools, but for me if I’m trying to giterdun it does feel like being on a stairmaster to go back to the hoods.
@andrew
Yeah the were aluminum cinelli altera handlebars and come to find out they have a reputation for snapping suddenly.
I was pretty surprised at the time.
@frank
Maybe it’s a proportion thing and being a shortarse otherwise known as somewhat vertically challenged, I hit some limit to be able to accommodate earlier. However, what I found with a longer stem is that with what is as my natural standing position I felt that the bike was on the verge of folding under me and I would go over the front wheel. Visually it looked as if there was some relationship whereby if the steering point became closer to the axle of the front wheel some dynamic changed somehow. So it could also be that with larger frames you can use a longer stem too before reaching that point. Of course in all probability it is neither and it’s just me! I was also ONLY taking about the effect when standing and powering not when riding seated
On the other hand I did doubt what you were saying in the article until I tried it this evening with my brain engaged and found that over a quick “power bump” it is very effective as a method to avoid shifting and produce more effective power vs being on the hoods – which on my vintage rig with downtube shifters is a good method to have in the toolbag – but it is definitely for short bursts.
@freddy
I believe a high cadence and a low gear is most efficient and I love climbing with my hands on top of the handlebar. If you never shift into the big ring and power up though, you may as well train on an elliptical machine. I will stick to doing both. For me, low cadence climbing out of the saddle is great for base building.
I rode with a fine bike rider who always said to try and maintain your gear as you climb, when you change to an easier gear your cadence will naturally tend to drop back to where you were, rather than increasing, so you just go slower, and why would anyone want that?
@Teocalli
Self observation here: up until six years ago I rode a steel bike with down tube shifters (6 wheel cogset) and shifted not so much, choosing instead to change my cadence and power over small climbs (not in drops but will have a go soon). After “upgrading” to a new bike with a few more shifting choices I transitioned to being a spinner and shift like hell keeping the same cadence more or less, but carry a little more speed (I think ).
I may go back to being lazy in the shifting arena on climbs and see how things go (in the drops for s and g’s).
@frank
Is this just another version of ‘Dangler’s Law’ which states: “The Angle of the Dangle is proportional to the Mass of the Ass while the Meat is constant”?
@The Pressure:
Holy flashback to the 90s…
@Ccos @frank
Hey, I actually have a great sense of humour only sarcasm,subtlety, and veiled humour is lost on me. Actually, the greater problem is I just suck at conversation….
@Puffy thanks for putting your nose in the wind on this. I can’t remember how many times I have told @frank that a gear inch is a gear inch. His reaction to that one does not get old.
@frank with all that talk of marginal gains I am surprised Sky haven’t offers you a gig.
@Nate
Then there’s the Belgian approach to chain rings: small in the winter, then move to big in the spring and summer. Of course, they only eat the crust of the bread, think house plants use up all the oxygen in a room, don’t have sex for a week before a race…
@Daccordi Rider
What throws me with this is that you’re repping 3 different teams between kit, gilet & gloves! Helmet cover is forgivable as that’s being imposed upon you (for the non South Australian readers, that’s how the race organisers show the rider’s grade).
@Teocalli
A few things; the VMH rides a 51cm R3SL with a 13cm stem – no issues. I think its just a matter of how you are used to the bike feeling – for sure your weight has the ability to get out farther over the wheel which will make a huge difference in handling. If your upper body sits like a lump on your bars, then you’ll have a greater issue than if you are able to unweight it effectively. This is part of the skill we Cyclists refer to as “bike handling skills”.
And just to point out the obvious – you’d need something like a 50cm stem to get so far out that you’d flip the bike over standing up. Just saying.
YOU’RE a toolbag. Seriously though, its totally its just a tool to have. I’m not about to big-ring Haleakala (although I will mount a 42×25 vs the 39×26 for next time.)
@piwakawaka
Absolutely agree with that theory! You have a natural cadence and your body will always gravitate to it, and what’s more you will find its harder to accelerate again after the steep bit because your speed will have slowed and inertia is a total asshole.