Reverence? Tubs
We can mimic the pros in many ways; kit, bikes, shaving our legs. Even if we’ll never ride like them, we can try (mostly in vain) to look like them. We’ll buy a piece of equipment because our favourite pro endorses it, or even adopt trends that the peloton have, such as alloy classic bend bars, slamming a 140mm stem, or putting those plastic sticky things across the bridge of our noses (yep, I actually did this in the mid 90’s when Tinker Juarez was rocking them on the mtb World Cup circuit. It didnt help a bit, and I looked like a twat). There are many pro traits that are certainly frowned upon and should never be attempted, like wearing the rainbow bands or maillot jaune. Then there are things we would love to be able to do, like snort cocaine with 18 yo models, but there’s as much chance of that as Cav finishing the Vuelta. And finally, there’s things that we can do, but are probably too cautious or conservative to do.
Like running tubs.
We know that every pro bike has the tyres glued to the rims, but how many of us actually own a set of tubs? How many would like to own a set? How many get the fear of Merckx put up them at the mere thought of getting caught miles from home with a flat? Ok, I hear you say, they’re only for racing, but how many of us are good enough to benefit from the reduced chance of a pinch flat on the cobbles, or the decreased rolling resistance from a 100 gram weight saving? I’m not seeing many hands… anyone, anyone? But still, I want some!
I’ve been on a mission to find a light set of wheels for Il Profetta, and scouring eBay and TradeMe has coughed up quite a few sets of tubs. Some going pretty cheap too. Several times I’ve been poised to push the ‘buy now’ button, but like a kid too scared to jump into the river from the highest bridge in town, I keep pulling back from the edge. It’s like, I might hit the water wrong and break my neck, but probably won’t. At worst, my shorts might fall down while scrabbling back up the bank to dry land, with the other kids pointing and laughing. It’s a risk I’m not willing to take. Clinchers are like having extra-strong elastic in the trunks, plus a drawstring for back up. Tubs on a punter’s bike are like a pair of Speedos on a fat bastard.
Just as I was ready to give up the idea of tubs altogether, we received an impassioned email out of the blue from an enthusiastic sew-up fan going by the moniker of “Tubolari”. He suggested in no uncertain terms that it was less than hardcore to ride clinchers or even to use tyre levers to remove them. The most surprising thing was, he wasn’t a grizzled old Italian mechanic or former Belgian domestique, but has only been riding for a year. Is it merely a case of wet-behind-the-ears zeal, or is he onto something? Should we all be digging out under the house and storing a stash of tubulars in there to age them? Let’s see…
Tubolari’s reasons for riding tubulars:
- You get to say you ride tubulars with a smug grin.
- It is an appropriate procedure to simply ask for tubulars in determining whether or not a bike shop is a REAL bike shop even if you don’t plan on buying tubulars.
- Tubulars are generally relegated to the lightly used sections of a store thus making you more hardcore because you need to blow dust off of the packaging just to read the specs that you’ve already read online.
- Personally, I use tape (Velox Jantex 76 Competition tubular tape) and that pretty much takes the hassle out of it. I think though, it makes me less hardcore than those who use glue.
- I love it when a machine breaks (tubbie flats), it shows that a machine is just as vulnerable as a human. I love to bring my machine back to working order like a doctor. It also gives me a reason to don my Campy cap and sing Italian tunes like in Breaking Away.
- Subjective qualities:
- I take a corner at speed with tubs (Gommitalia Challenge $30 a pop) and feel the bump (I begin to panic) but the tubbies have already deflected around the rock and I’m safe, I grin and press on.
- I take a corner at speed with clinchers (Continental Grand Prix 3000, $75 a pop) and feel the the bump (I begin to panic) and jump about what feels like half a foot sideways (I check my shorts, they are dry), I press on.
- I joined a charity ride as a volunteer (ride guide), I am the official tubular tire repair/changer mechanic and get my own car, walky talky and office. The office I use will be for participants to drop off their tires and wheels for spares so I can SAG them on the ride. Not bad for starting road biking last year right?
- Piling spare tubs in your jersey gives others a conversation piece when on tours with your local club.
- Merckx rode tubulars so it seems only fitting ;).
- Tubulars are like wine, you like some, you don’t like others. Some go well with Steel and some go well with Carbon Fiber.
Some compelling points for sure, and it’s hard to argue with his passion. Or is it? Keeper Gianni loves an argument, and can refute the strongest of opinions with a sneer, or just by hitting the reply button;
Yeah, yeah, senor Tubolari, talk to me in a year when you have peeled off, opened up, patched, re-sewn, re-glued, and re-glued more a bunch of tubolaris. Sure you may get laid more often riding tubulars, but trying to get a girl’s bra off with all that tubasti glue on your mitts is tough.
I’ve done my time with them and moved on, tubless road clinchers is where I’m heading, the great beyond. Come with me.
Cheers, Gianni
Think I’m gonna sit on the fence on this one for a while longer, and leave my pro tyre-emulation to these or these for now…
I hear clinchulars are where it’s at.
I have made the move to tubeless on my Baum (Campy Shamal 2-ways) and so far results have been good and not so good.
The Not So Good
I first started with Hutchinson Fusion 2s and in the space of a few months got three really big cuts in the tyres that I certainly haven’t got before. One of the cuts was able to repair itself whilst I was still moving, which was pretty cool at the time – but not before spraying my bike and myself with a bunch of latex sealant which made me and the Baum resemble a porn starlet who had just been on the receiving end of a money shot.
Once I got home and cleaned up I had to ditch that tyre – the hole was sealed but it wasn’t a permanent repair.
The other two times, the massive cuts required insertion of a tube – which requires the Hands of Heracles on a Campy rim and another soiling at the hands of Lord Latex. And the tyres were dead after that.
The Good
Have now switched to Hutchinson Intensive 25s and have not had any trouble since. The ride quality has been great.
So for me, jury is out on tubeless – as more tyre makers come into this space, I think it will improve further.
Or will Road Tubeless be the Betamax VCRs of cycling. A far better product than clinchers (VHS) but never get the customer take up.
For now, am running clinchers on my no. 1 bike – even in races. And I hear you on the marginal gains that tubulars might give a plonker like me. I would benefit more from not eating huge amounts of cake disguised by coffee shops as a “muffin”.
I do like Turbolari’s reasons and I wish I could say I run tubulars.
I have 2 pairs. Oli’s hopefully tickling one pair back to life for me now. 400 gram difference (for the pair) between them and an identical set of rims with gatorskins on em. Won’t ride clinchers on the track because Wanganui’s banking scares the shit out of me and there’s no way I’m riding clinchers on that.
Wait, what’s your point? You want the Tubular fairy to make you a better rider?
Vittoria rep on tubeless
Need to scroll down to get to the letter. I own ultegras that I can run tubeless but can’t see the point.
PS I have 3 pairs of tubs, not 2.
Oh, this would kick off a discussion lasting for days in my favorite German cycling forum. One thing is for sure: tubbies have rather a higher than a lower rolling resistance compared to clincher tires inflated to the same pressure. And the rolling resistance and “feel” of tubulars very much depends on the mechanic and if he is a master in the art of gluing. And there is also no higher puncture resistance of the tubulars. It is just that they cannot flat due to wrong installation as it may happen with the inner tubes of clincher tires. And they may lose air less quickly than the latter. So if you ride on your own w/o a mechanic in the service car and complete wheels that you can use as replacement in case you run flat on the roof the car, and you have to pay for spare parts yourself than you should stick to clinchers.
But they have a big advantage when it comes to cyclocross (or Paris-Rubaix-like events). You can run the big tubbies (32-36 mm) at much lower pressure than the clincher tires having a lower risk for snake-bite flats at the same time. This gives a lot more control. So I run Dugast Rhinos (and in the next season also Challange Limus) tubulars for cyclocross. And I mount them using the famous Tufo tape. (see picture below) But on the road I will continue to use clinchers. I run ENVE clincher rims with 25 mm Conti GP4000S with latex tubes. This combination runs incredible smooth.
And I tell you what: w/o the development of carbon rims probably nobody except some pro’s would ride tubulars for road racing anymore. It is just that carbon clinchers are not easy to produce, are >100 g heavier per rim compared to the tubular version, and come with the drawback of insufficient heat dissipation.
And of course when you are riding on the track, tubulars are the better choice simply just because you can run them at pressures >>10 bar. But you probably don’t want to run with a 20 mm at 12 bar on the road …
Oh Eddy H Merckx, the fats in the fire now. This debate will go between all us assholes for weeks.
I have settled on one truth: I don’t need more bike shit. I need more time to ride the shit out if my bike.
@Eightzero
Amen.
@minion
The point (as I understand them) is that you can (and should) run them at lower pressures so you get a far better ride.
Different levels of rolling resistance in cycle tyres (as explained to me by a fella who has a First from Cambridge in Materials Engineering) has virtually no effect on speed etc.
@Marcus
Oh yes, it has. Even if you run the same clincher tire at the same pressure on different rims this can have a significant impact, at least on a rough surface. As mentioned I run 25 mm Conti GP4000S. I inflate to 6.5/7 bar (front/rear). And it makes a huge difference if I run my ENVE Carbon clincher wheels or my Mavic CXP33 on my fav climb. (At ~20 km/h the aerodynamics of the wheels has no effect.) But due to the slightly small rim diameter of the ENVE rims the tires have more place to flex. So they have a virtually higher diameter. The rolling resistance is much lower. The ENVE wheelset runs smooth like silk. With Mavics almost every road feels like riding in Flandern. You should try it yourself.
But tub’s vs. tires is like Christianity vs. Islam (or vice versa if you like).
Where are the surly rules when you need them?
Tubs feel different. Tubs can be lighter than clinchers, if you can ebay the right pair. I like tubs. I like clinchers. You’ll never glue yourself to yourself with clinchers.
@grumbledook
Carbon clinchers weigh the same as carbon rims with al brake tracks. Longevity or braking won’t be as good. How many tires can you remove with levers before you fark the rim? I don’t know so I might wait for other people to figure that out. Wheel companies have figured out how to make the next most expensive part of your bike more, consumable shall we say.
I’m not an early adapter is all I’m saying.
@Marcus
Mrs Marcus must be an understanding woman.
@grumbledook
Think you might be speaking to a different point. And we might be getting close to a religious discussion as I certainly don’t have proof. But I make no assertion about what tyre pressure/width will do to affect rolling resistance.
What i have been told (and I don’t pretend to understand the physics involved) is that rolling resistance, whether high or low, has very little effect on bike speed.
You speak of “feel” – that is a subjective measure that can be influenced by many variables other than the rolling resistance of a tyre. Your example changed the wheels, which might change many things other than just rolling resistance – for instance, the level of “road noise”/vibration through different shape/width/material rims, etc (note, those things aren’t rolling resistance).
As I say, the fella who told me this has a big brain and is one of the guys who started off Baum, so I respect his opinions on bikes. And I am certainly not making any comments as to the rideability of different tyres/wheels, etc.
Should we get Leonard Zinn on board…
@Minion
No, they don’t weigh the same. ENVE: 1.45 tub’s 295 g, 2.45 tub’s 355 g, 45 clincher 440 g.
Braking is not worse with clinchers. (I ride ENVE tubulars and clinchers. So I can compare.) I don’t need/use a tool to mount/dismount my clincher tires. So I don’t consider this an issue. But you may run into trouble with carbon clinchers when you have a blow out. That is for sure. (Maybe I switch to tubbies for the road when I ruined my first carbon clincher rim …)
Note: The United Healthcare pro cycling team uses ENVE clincher rims w/ Maxxis tires. And they are pretty successful. So it can’t be all bad. In the late 80’s early 90’s Panasonic pro team used to ride the very first edition of the Conti GP clincher tires. (I used them too and never ran flat with those. But they are no longer available as foldable clincher.)
Clinchulars like Albert mentioned will also have a similar effect.
My fat arse pedalling a bike down the street causes rolling resistance.
@Marcus
It’s not only feel. I am consistently faster with the ENVE wheelset compared to the other one. If somebody is willing to donate $3000 I would get myself some SRM cranks and do some measurements, i.e. record the speed/time achieved with the same power of pedaling.
@grumbledook
Maybe spend the $3k on a reading comprehension course. Your proposed experiment would not isolate rolling resistance – this is the only issue i raised. You are talking about many different variables there – am guessing wheel weight might be a big influence…
Zipp 404 carbon clinchers are 1600 grams a pair. Mavic cosmic carbones with an al track are just under 1600 grams. There is no weight advantage in that case, of course they’re heavier than tubs.
All right Brett, we might as well have this discussion sometime on the site. My very first proper racing bike came with tubs so I was taught how to properly mount and repair them. Everyone probably should have this experience so I would encourage all to own one set of tubular wheels and become proficient with them.
I reckon Bertie Contador has not glued or patched a sew-up tire in a long time; pros use them because they are lighter, maybe ride better and they have mechanics. Paris-Roubaix has been won on Michelin Pro-3 clinchers and Francais-de-Joux (sp?) have done P-R with tubeless clinchers.
I have 25mm michelin clinchers on my bike now so I can have lower tire pressure still less pinch flats and like Marcus said, I’m hoping the tubeless clinchers get better and lighter as I would love to be a Campa Shamal tubeless guy.
@Marcus
Yes, you are right, I would have to spend another 3k to get the ENVE tubular wheels with the same rim depth and spoke count to compare to tubulars or find comparable carbon clincher wheel with a slightly larger diameter to prove my statement regarding the the rolling resistance of the same tire on different rims. But I don’t have this money left nor do I feel the urge to make you go faster by convincing you that I am right. But I am very sure that on rough tarmac you will be able to measure significant differences between the setups mentioned above. This may not make you go faster than your cycling fellows. But you will be faster than you’ve been before. Rolling resistance does matter! (You may want to have a look here.)
I reckon.
Good one Bretto.
@Gianni
That’s why I got them, to find out and see what the differences are. I like em. And you get hiiiiiggggghhhh off the glue.
I don’t see why you would buy a pair of deep section carbon wheels in anything other than tubular, you may as well combine the inconvenience of glue with the unreliability of a carbon braking surface.
I have two sets of tubs, both at the speciality end of the spectrum (32h Nemesis with Pave CGs; deep section carbon rims). The deep section wheels are a recent addition, but what with riding them an increasing amount, I am more and more relazed about riding tubs all the time. What I would like is an everyday, 28 spoke count. The Coles look interesting.
I have a pair of Hed Ardennes FRs (clinchers) that with Michelin Pro3Races and latex tubes are a beautiful ride. These would be awesome in a tub, although then couldn’t use Michelins (although I like Vittorias, especially because of their new fancy interchangeable valve thingy, which beats the hell out of a traditional valve extender).
@Gianni
I love my Dugast tubulars. But mounting and alignment is not a big deal with fat cc tubs. I don’t consider myself skilled enough for perfectly gluing road tubs. (I did this the last time as a teenager more than 20 years ago.) And I agree, 25 mm is the perfect width for road clincher tires.
Sorry, something went wrong there: I am more and more relaXed about riding tubs all the time. What I would like is an everyday, shallow depth, less than 28 hole tubular alloy rim. Suggestions? Reflex and Ambrosio rims are a bit portly.
I wonder how much of the ‘superior feel’ of tubs v clinchers which people so often mention is down to the wheels. Tubs are pretty much universally on high-end wheels, whereas clinchers only overlap that market slightly.
Tubolari for example in his description of taking corner doesn’t say anything about the wheels, or indeed the bike.
FWIW I tend to think that tubeless are probably better but not going to make that much difference unless you’re at pro level, and the extra hassle is just not worth the marginal gain.
I run tubeless (Eurus wheels) and I really like them, but would like to see more tyre makers offering them. I see the new Campag wheel range for 2012 is very big on tubeless versions so hopefully that will encourage the likes of Michelin, Vredestein and Vittoria.
They’re sew-ups. Tubs are for bathing.
In my mind, sew-ups are for racing. They properly focus your mind on the task at hand. When part of race prep is making sure your race wheels are ready to go, you grow wings. It’s like hearing the Star Wars theme. Goosebumps.
I haven’t turned a pedal in anger in 21 years. But if I had the resources, I’d ride sew-ups as much as possible. They feel great to me, and the psychological effect they have on me is probably much greater than the actual physics involved.
Everyone should descend on a pair of sew-ups that they themselves glued. DESCEND AT LUDICROUS SPEED. Nothing quite gives you a sense of accomplishment like gluing on your sew-ups, descending on them, and not dying from a rolled tire.
Everyone should learn how to patch a sew-up. Mind you, there’s sewing involved.
Tubs are Pro. Look pro, feel pro. I picked up a set (my 4th over the years) of Reynolds this season and dropped .68Kg of weight (rotational) off the steed. I run TUFO S3 Lites (<195g) and have only had one flat. I do only race on them tho.
That’s me on the rivet, we’re off the front and y’all can f off before you comment on the shoe covers. I canned those things.
weird, photo didn’t post. Let’s try again.
@Jeff in PetroMetro
Yes, what you said…….
@Jeff in PetroMetro
That’s what I’m talking about! That’s the proper test of your glue job. Putting your tires where your face is?
I fix them: http://www.qualitytubularservice.com and tubulars are increasing in use because there are more events where performance matters, such as roubaix style races, cross, and fondos. You can train on them all day long especially if your weight is below 175. I only use clinchers when i have to use a trainer. Tufos are not sew ups! The cheap tubulars are good to train on and have had less problems than clinchers: no pinch flats, no valve stem tears. Also, I have ridden 20 miles on a flat sew up. HTFU!
@eddysboy You use a trainer… man up and get out on your bike ;-)
Why the weight limit, out of interest ? (and as an 85kg rider, which is what, 190lbs ? I haven’t been 175lbs since I was 15 years old)
Many of the lads I ride with, who do or have road raced ride clinchers. They’re faster than me & they know more. Just rode with a former PRO on Sunday and he was on mismatched clinchers. For me, this isn’t something I mull over. Rather than worrying about a move to sew-ups I am planning my move to a carbon wheelset. A few of my riding mates say this is the next move I must make.
I raised this elsewhere, but this seems an apt place to bring it up. I’m heading into my first CX racing season. Will be using a set of Ksyrium SL wheels with Hutchinson tires, tubeless ready. Currently using tubes. Is tubeless worth it for a rookie racer? All I would need is a Stan’s kit. Will be racing in the mid-Atlantic region in the U.S. Pretty dry, not too much mud or rain, might be a bit of snow, but not much. Input appreciated.
I like GP 4000s a lot. Tons of km’s on them, hardly ever flat, so rarely I’ll risk pissing off the Puncture Gods. I also have the Vittoria Evo Corsas on my steel Casati. What a sweet ride on those! Not as long lasting or puncture resistant, but still awesome tires.
And one more time:
I have settled on one truth: I don’t need more bike shit. I need more time to ride the shit out if my bike.
A-Merckx to that! Every time I begin to whittle down my bike needs/bike wants list…It just starts to grow again. Damnit. Been needing new soccer boots for months and finally stopped buying cycling gear long enough to buy some.
grumbledook – Which latex tubes do you use? Doesn’t seem to me that there are that many around. I’ve used Michelin in the past. Remind me of the upside of them, if you would. Weight & ride quality, I think?
And also, why the hell are we letting someone who has only been on the road for a year spark such a debate? Holy mother of Merckx. I think I was still figuring out how to replace my tubes when I was only a year into it, or maybe just figuring out I had tubes inside my tires.
Dang, I wish I knew what you lot were all talking about…..
I shall consult Wikipedia and then wait for you to start talking about racing and wimmin again before contributing further – love your obsessions though
Off to get my ass kicked in a 25 mile road race tonight – I’ve got rubber tyres on my circular wheels, so I imagine I am stuffed
@Ron
I’ve used Michelin latex tubes only. No need to switch to another manuf.
Yesterday I had my first flat in 3 years … with a (not even extra-light) butyl tube (in a GP4000S 25 mm) for no obvious reason. Luckily, the air went out slowly and I was not descending or cornering. … As far as CX is concerned: I have my doubts about tubeless for CX. You may have a hard time getting those sealed. Or you have to run them at higher pressure than you could with tubbies. Rather use latex tubes with a little milk. For CX, I prefer tubulars. Inflated to about 2 bar those are just fun. But better ask this question in a CX forum.
I won the Idaho State Championship on tubs. End of discussion.
@Cyclops
He rides on clinchers:
(Brad White, most aggressive rider of stage 1 of the USA Pro Cycling Challenge)
@grumbledook
What a pussy.
BTW, is it just me or does anybody else think Sidi’s commercials are pretty stupid?
@Cyclops
Oh shit, here we go…
@Ron
I concur with Herr Grumbledook, at low CX pressure you run the risk of letting a big burp of air out of the tubeless tire as you go into an off-camber section/corner when the bead unseats. He is wise.
@Cyclops
It’s not just you. That same ad over and over just kills me. It sucked the first time I saw it. It still sucks 500 viewings later.
I’m just being an ARP. I only ride my tubs at races and important rides. Otherwise it’s the convenience of clinchers for me.
@Gianni
…and not your face where your tires are. ;)
@Ron
Mid-Atlantic where? This will be my rookie CX season as well. Live in VA and will be hitting most of the MABRA Super 8 races.
grumble & Gianni – Hmm, I picked up my CX bike from a riding pal. Pretty positive he used these wheels to race last year, ran them tubeless. I thought he told me to go tubeless in-season so that I could run them at lower pressure. These Mavic rims don’t have open spoke holes (in case you didn’t know) and the Hutchinson tires are tubeless ready too. My buddy suggests it, but he’s also the one telling me I need Reynolds carbon wheels…guy works in the industry so gets everything free or at a steep discount. Damn him, thinks we all can have the best stuff!
Now I’m really confused.
grumble – No cash in the cookie jar for a tubular wheelset for the cross bike. Just spent too much on the bike itself. Heck, I figure I’ll have enough trouble not bashing my face, tire choice is low on my list of considerations.
And as for this whole discussion, heck my race reading skills could help me out a lot more than tire choice. I’m sticking with clinchers. And a bunch of other stuff aside from tires. Oh, and I don’t road race, just fast group rides. So there is that to consider.
Cyclops – Booyah, as Dave Zabriskie would say! “I’m Idaho State Champ, baby!”
http://davezabriskie.com/?p=500
Brett,
It just dawned on me, I use the same toothbrush that’s in your picture. But I brush my teeth with it. Small world.
Racing on tubs is superior, especially crits. The rule changes in cross practically mandate tubular use on any course with properly difficult conditions and surfaces. A U-shaped 32mm clincher on even a 23mm rim isn’t anything on a perfectly round tub at a full bar less pressure.
I enjoy gluing a tire. I get tough enough tires to train on them. They feel amazing, and no one would know the difference other than you–unlike other attempts at PRO-emulative vanity.
Ahhh tubulars. Back in the day I had some nice Clement Criterium tubs on my special TT wheels. (24 spoke, Mavic rims with Royce Racing hubs.)Stuck them on with some nasty red glue crap. They did sing pretty sweet at 150psi though . . . Fortunately I rarely punctured and when I did I sent them off to England to a guy who would fix them for a reasonable fee. I figured that was way more efficient than me ruining a good tub. Nowadays, if I was still racing I’d be inclined to go with some top-notch clinchers and latex tubes.
Cyclops. Yes the Sidi ads are crap.
I have been riding on tubulars for 30+ years, training and racing. Vittoria Pavè Evo CG tubs are my favorite, since I ride in wet conditions about once a week. I hate to even say it, but I have been on the ground less than a handful of times in all those years. I credit that to tubulars and proper inflation. I doubt that would be true, if I had been riding clinchers. My prostrate is smaller due to tubulars too. The only clinchers I have are on my 1984 Toyota Landcruiser.
@Nof Landrien
HED makes a 24 h Belgium tubular rim now.