The Tubeless Enigma
There must still be a few readers out there who have not followed the Dutch Monkey down the merry tubular path; for them I offer an update on an alternative. Road tubeless has been lauded as the best thing to happen to cycling since the introduction of seatpins. These have been around for years but the road version has not gathered the expected momentum. Michelin made them then discontinued, Continental* is not interested, Bontrager said they were coming out with a model or two, Maxxis has a model. Hutchinson has a nasty little near-monopoly on the road tubeless market. Basically, there are maybe six models total and Hutchinson makes three of them. The tyres are different from regular clinchers in two ways: their square carbon bead snugs into square extrusion in the tubeless specific rim and they have a butyl inner-wall layer. The bead makes an airtight seal. The addition of latex sealant inside the tyre prevents almost all air loss and self-seals.
For unexplainable reasons I was advocating for them long before I actually used them. I liked the idea of no pinch-flats but moving to 25mm tyres mostly solved that. I liked the idea of using lower tyre pressure, which also was solved by going to 25mm inner-tubed tyres. It is claimed tubeless ride like sew-up tyres due to the lack of inner-tube but the tubeless tyres have a butyl coating on the inside to keep them airtight so they can’t be as supple. They may ride better than clinchers but they are heavier than sew-ups. Tubeless require forty grams of liquid sealant, there’s some more weight.
Pros
- No inner-tube means no pinch flats.
- No pinch flat worries mean lower tyre pressures.
- No inner-tube also means better ride and improved cornering.
- Sealant seals tyres automatically.
- An inner-tube can still be installed if sealant fails to work or has dried up.
- An inner-tube and regular clincher can always be installed on tubeless rims if one wants to go back to regular set-up. No harm, no foul.
- Tyre stays on rim even when deflated.
Cons
- Very limited selection of tubeless tyres and only one 25mm model.
- More expensive than most clinchers.
- Sealing process is messy, to put it politely.
- Post sealing clean up of bike is necessary.
- Periodic maintenance of tyres/sealant required.
Debatable misconceptions
- Tyres don’t seat on the rim without CO2 cartridge.
- Installing inner-tube roadside is impossible.
- Tyres are very hard to install and remove.
- Tyre stays on rim even when deflated.
I’ve been using Hutchinson Intensive tubeless tyres on Campagnolo Eurus 2-way fit wheels for nine months. I’ve had a total three punctures, all resulting in latex spew, sealing and riding. So the good news is I haven’t been sweating on the side of the road replacing inner-tubes. That never was a big problem, I can do that in seven minutes, I’ve been doing that for many years. Seven minutes is less time than it takes to clean the bike from the latex after-party. What I don’t know about are the slow leaking punctures that the latex handles without messy fanfare. Seven minutes is also about a tenth of the time one will spend fixing a flat on a sew-up tyre. Even if “fixing” means peeling it off, putting in a pile you will never touch again and installing a new sew-up tyre.
I can dispel some misconceptions. The tyres do easily seat with a floor pump. I’ve installed the last resort inner-tube in my shop for practice but not in the field. Installing an inner-tube with the sealant covering everything roadside would be nasty. If one keeps the bead at the center of the rim and finishes at the valve, most can install a tubeless tyre with cycling gloves on, no tools. They will also come off easily if the bead is kept in the center of the rim and one starts near the valve. It is no harder than clinchers. I haven’t tested the claim that they stay on the rim while riding deflated, nor will I.
Do they ride better? That is the Question. We would happily put up with the lack of tyre selection and latex cleanup if the ride was a lot better than inner-tubed clinchers. I wish I could proclaim right here, right now that they rule but I can’t. I find it very hard to qualify those differences without some real testing. My inaugural ride on road tubeless was also my inaugural ride on my new Eurus wheels. The bike did corner much better, that was obvious and I assumed it was the Eurus wheeels not the tyres. Maybe that assumption was wrong but there is no way to tell unless I had two wheelsets to test one after the other, which I don’t. If the ride improvment was definitive, should it be the tyre of the future? If more tyre manufacturers jump into the pool the technology would improve and remove a few of the problems.
What the world needs is this: three wheelsets, a clincher, a tubeless and a tubular. All built the same except for rim/tyre choice. Have a group ride where wheels are swapped and tested, blindfolded! It is the only way. We await the offers.
Are we all confused? Are you sorry you just read an article with no definitive conclusion? You are welcome.
*Continental won’t manufacturer a tyre unless it stays on the rim at double it’s maximum pressure. I can’t imagine clinchers perform better than tubeless for that particular test.
“An inner-tube can still be installed it sealant.. …has dried up.”
Surely this is not an issue worth considering as dried up sealant is indicative of maintenance so lackluster that it would have any self respecting velominati self flagellating with a chain whip to the point of death.
For that matter, isn’t the whole sealant thing a bit irrelevant to this as it can be used in all three options? The only upside is that when the latex does dry up it can be pealed out of a tubeless while the tube and the tub have had it.
Fair summary Gianni.
Funnily enough I’ve been running Hutchinson Tubeless on Campag Eurus for two years, but I’ve just decided it isn’t worth the hassle and switched to tubes. I can’t say I have noticed any particular difference.
I can confirm it is possible, but messy, to put a tube in at roadside. I had a cut that the sealant couldn’t manage.
Main reasons for me were the lack of tyre choice and the fuss.
The Hutchinson tyres are crap, and very poor wearing. And I have never successfully repaired a tubeless tyre so that’s 40 quid every time there is a significant puncture. The sealant doesn’t seem to stop it completely and I wouldn’t trust it for more than getting you home.
And the sealant tends to coagulate inside along the rim, so you end up with 40g of liquid sealant and 40g of coagulated sealant, unless you clean it every time, which is a pain.
I find it strange that Campag/Fulcrum are going big on the two-way fit stuff but don’t seem to have brought tyre manufacturers along with them. Hamlet without the Prince. Until then I’ll go back to the clinchers.
“I haven’t tested the claim that they stay on the rim while riding deflated, nor will I” …
It is this above statement which will prevent me from ever trying tubeless. Having run them with mixed success on my MTB I cannot get past what would happen in the even of a rapid deflation at speed on a descent.
I also made the switch to tubular tyres about the same time as Frank. I was initially worried until I had my first roadside puncture. 15mins was all it took to put on a new tyre and get going and that was mainly because I was being overly cautious. The second time punture took under ten to swap as this time i brought a plastic tyre lever to help unseat the glued tub from the rim.
I’m not against tubeless and can see the benefits as I did when I used them on my MTB but I don’t see what it solves over a normal clincher? If you have a punture big enough that it causes the goo to come out then you have to whack in an inner tube anway, so you have to carry one just as you would with ordinary clincher tyres. Oh, and good luck with changing unseatting a tubeless tyre from a tubeless rim at the roadside, those bad boys are tighter than a camel arse in a sandstorm to get off.
Coming back to my first concern it is highspeed flats that woory me riding on clinchers or tubeless now. The two puncture I have had on tubular tyres were both fairly fast (over 50kph) and happened very fast but without incident, i just rolled to a stop. My previous pucture to that on a clincher tyre wreck a carbon rim, had it been on the front I think it would have wrecked my No.1 and me.
You can also run the anti-flat goo in tubular tyres and woulf therefoe (IMHO) have the best of both benefits.
I’m interested in how the advantages of a tubeless setup compare to the 23mm wide HED C2 and Velocity a23 rims mounted with 23mm tires. I’ve read numerous reports of better cornering performance and a more supple ride due to the change in the profile of a 23mm tire the wider rim creates and the lower pressure the tire can be run at (According to HED, the recommend an 11% drop in pressure of a 23mm tire on their C2 rims). Anyone with experience?
@VeloVita The a23 rims with 23mm tires do indeed handle a little better. The tires end up measuring 25mm wide when mounted, and they end up handling a lot like… 25mm tires. Maybe a touch better, but that might be because you can run slightly lower pressure. The nice thing is that you now have a huge selection of what are now effectively 25mm tires that weigh the same as 23mm tires. You also have a much improved selection of effectively 27mm tires. The a23 rim weighs 15g less than a Ksyrium SL rim too.
There are a few new wheelsets out there that are running a wider front rim than rear, so I feel a little less goofy with the 23 on the rear and one of my stock of old Vittoria Open Coursa 25’s on the front. On ugly pavement descents (my favorites,) the combination is noticeably faster.
Gianni, I appreciate the long term, honest review. I’m used to reading product reviews from a guy who recommends classic bend bars after two minutes of sitting on his bike in a basement.
Granted, that review did end up being accurate.
I can’t comment on how they run, whether they are any good, whether they save time or will make you a better rider. And btw, I love reading a review where someone has taken the effort to compare and had come up inconclusive…at least it is honest and to the point….that’s actually quite rare these days where someone is always trying to sell you something new…..that costs more!
For what it is worth, here is how I see it…
This is innovation for innovations sake. Someone has spent a load of RnD time (and money) thinking this would be a great thing. They have run off and focus group’d the world with a bunch of pre-loaded marketing questions about customer need and then got the answers they wanted to justify production. Next watch out of a load of pro guys swearing by them (Cipo probably runs them on his Bond Ad…yeah right!).
All in all you get a possible benefit on punctures time saved on the road side (which is crucial in a grand tour…but they also have spare wheels!) but if the puncture is bad…its worse than having a tube. They are heavier, you can spread monkey spunk all over your bike and have to clean it and this is classed as the latest innovation?!
Don’t get me wrong..I am no luddite….but I turned to Co2 when I realised it really did save me time and effort and the chances of getting 3 punctures was so unlikely if it happened god would be more likley descend from heavens and mend my puncture with his very own Belgian Toothpaste.
But this? nah…BMW tried promoting on their cars a few years ago….I don’t see the rest of the industry doing “oh shit that was a good idea why didn’t we think of that!”
Leave me with my clinchers…cost effective wheels and cheap tubes….those riding tubs/sew ups, enjoy your ride quality and the spare strapped under your saddle where the EPMS does not rightly belong….and….move along, there is nothing to see here.
Nice article though Gianni…good to have the debate!
The photo caption touts the Rule #40 compliance but fails to note the Rule #60 washer nut violation. Does the valve nut hold the tubeless valve stem in place? If so it appears the tubeless setup is inherently rule-violating.
Great article, but before making a final judgement, try the Hutch Fusion 3s as opposed to the Intensives – much nicer more tubular-like ride and a little less weight. Also, for the fat-tire guys, Hutchinson announced a 28mm version of the Intensive last June, although it hasn’t materialized in stores yet. Given that the current 25mm Intensives really measure 23mm, the 28s will probably be 25mm – Nice option for a winter tire.
@Nate Nailed it again. The valve stem nut is required for tubeless, hence road tubeless is inherently in violation.
I gotta say, I love my tubeless mtb setup, but haven’t drunk the kool-aid (tubulars or tubeless clinchers) on the road yet, for most of the reasons @Gianni so eloquently details above. Same (I hate to admit) with carbon wheels, although several clubmates are showing marked improvement after switching to deeper section carbon wheels, and switching to 25’s may be in the stars.
Gonna dance with the current setup (RolfPrima Elan RS with Conti 4000s 700×23’s + tubes) for a tad longer. Keep the datapoints coming tho!
@Nate yep you need the valve nut there – it assists with holding the valve’s airtight seal against the inside of the rim.
I bought into the tubeless thing about 3 years ago. Got some shamal 2 ways and initially loved the feel of them (on Fusion 2s). But that may well have been the pleasure of running them at 90psi. Anyhoo, all was good until within the space of a month I had 4 punctures, 3 of which were tyre cuts so big that the sealant couldn’t repair it. The other one was quite cool in that it repaired itself (with a minor latex money shot for me) whilst still rolling with some loss of pressure – but enough to get home.
Fixed two of the other flats by inserting a tube and 5 dollar note – which was no easy thing. One time I just couldnt do it (weak hands, cold day) so i had to taxi it home. Moved to the Intensive 25s, which never missed a beat.
Unfortunately the mental scarring of the roadside flats – and the general fucking about with sealant and more annoyingly, cleaning out dried sealant from time to time – left me happy to see the back of them. Sold them with a bike last month and wont be going tubeless again until i am more convinced about their pros outweighing their cons.
I like the “idea” of tubeless, lower pressures, etc., but you do still get flats and they are a massive pain in the arse when they occur. Better off going for tubbies if you are moving away from clinchers.
@Chris
I bet once you put sealant in a tubular it can’t be repaired. I finally figured out when a tubeless starts to lose air like an inner-tube clincher it means the sealant is pretty much gone.
@ChrisO
Yeah, I suspected that too. I patched the inside wall my first puncture with a normal inner-tube patch and didn’t touch the other two. They are fine. You are right about a lot of fuss. I almost like the fuss, I hate seeing the bike getting sprayed with sealant. Also, maybe I’ve been lucky having three for three punctures sealing nicely.
@sgt
Good to see you around these parts amigo. Do your clubrides go up and down the mountain or are they mostly down in the flats? I’m not down with carbon rims for my riding/don’t see the point, and I hear horror stories about melted rims and the like amongst the SoCal canyons.
@Marcus Sounds like all of the benefits of a wide rim (e.g.HED) with more hassle.
Well put Gianni, I my self keep it pretty simple, clincher for all reasons mentioned above plus is gives the beer fund more capitol and i like that. That sealant is nasty stuff, if one has to insert the old standby tube in winter of the upper midwest. Your at the murcy of the gods on any given day.
@sgt
I’m going to keep with the data points but if I was to abandon them would go back to 25mm clinchers. I ridden and patched enough tubulars not to want to go back. Maybe that’s a mistake. Maybe they would make me climb like an angel. Or not.
Good read. I’ve worked in bike shops off and on since 1978 (“a friggin’ old guy-groan”) and always had tubis on at least one of my bikes up until 3 or 4 years ago, BUT, these days a GP4000S with a light tube and a pair of 1405gram wheels is what I’m riding…. and can’t for the life of me see the need or benefits of tubeless. My setup has nice ride qualities, good handling, long life, flat resistance, what more could you want? My friend just had her cross bike set up tubeless. She found a goathead in a tire the other day and when she pulled it out it went “pfffft” and sealed itself. “See”? She said. “TUBELESS rocks”. Yeah, well I’m waiting for the phone call when she cuts the tire and finds that jizz everywhere and can’t get the damn thing off and it’s getting dark and the wolves are circling, and blah, blah, blah. FOLKS, just buy a quality tire and tube and ride the damn thing. You need light? Tubis are still a good option for that special race/ride. And you can put sealant in tubis if you feel the need and still have a light good riding set-up.
p.s. – A little trick. If you’re riding a tube or tubi that doesn’t have a removable valve, use a hypodermic syringe to inject the latex in directly. The latex will seal the pinhole.
Slightly off topic, but I saw the photo and initially thought the article was going to be about the Hutchinson Intensive clincher, which is one of my favorite tires. Not the lightest, not the smoothest (although not bad either), these tires in my experience are ridiculously long lasting and incredibly puncture resistant, even in winter and on gravel. You can also pick them up quite cheaply. I also love the Hutchinson Fusions, but don’t like the color options usually available! Having briefly skimmed these posts, I’ve no plans to switch to either tubular or tubeless…
I’m curious, have you actually tried squirting sealant through a hypodermic syringe? It’s hard enough getting it into a de-cored valve without the solution clogging up…
I get about one flat a year (though the other week I had two in a row, grrrrr), I can’t imagine tubeless being of any benefit. Seems like a huge hassle to avoid something that happens so rarely any ways.
I’ve helped set up some tubeless mountain bike tires. What a giant pain in the ass. I’ll stick with sew-ups.
@Jeff in PetroMetro
While I’m totally happy running 25mm GP4000s on my road bike and have no intention of changing that set-up, I did go tubeless on my mtb so I can run super low pressures over the mud and soaking slick tree roots and cursed dark wetness of Mirkwood, west of the Cascade Mountains.
I found it rather simple to set up. Why was it a pain in the ass in your experience?
@Nate
that’s exactly the point I was getting at above – with the new wider rims I don’t know that tubeless really offers much if any advantage.
I think we’re in danger of overlooking the main benefit of tubulars here, which is that at least once a year you get to spend quality time in a small room with quality solvents.
I switched to tubeless this year and am currently running the same Intensive tires as Gianni, but on Shamal wheels. Getting the tire on was fairly difficult, but they seated up immediately with a floor pump and held air even without any sealant. I have since added some Stan’s sealant and have been going on my merry way. I never had any leakage or burping issues. I switched to this setup from Dura Ace C24 wheels, Vittoria EVO CX tires and Vittoria latex tubes. I run the new setup 5 psi lower than the old. I find the new setup to be a much nicer ride and thoroughly enjoy them. They seem to be at least equal in performance to the tubed Vittorias in every way with the added benefit of a smoother ride.
One of the benefits of the tubeless with sealant approach that I see is that it will seal up all of the tiny pin holes that require attention on a sealant-free system. How many pin holes will it seal without me even knowing? I imagine quite a few.
At the risk of cursing myself, I’ll admit that I have gone all-in on the tubeless concept and don’t even carry a tube or levers anymore. I do carry a small pump to replace any air that does escape.
I have never ridden tubulars, so I can’t compare, but I do lust after some Bora Ultra 2 or Enve SES wheels.
Is this just a case of ” if it aint broke, dont fix it” ?? Having never tried tubeless i am in no position to comment but cant see a reason to change.
Thanks for the write up @Gianni, really informative piece!
I don’t generally carry a spare, just a tiny bottle of sealant, valve core tool and short length of vinyl tubing that press fits over the valve stem and bottle nozzle (Stan’s seems to clump less than Tufo). And pump, of course. In the past 5 years I’ve only had one puncture that sealant didn’t fix. I blame the shitty tubular (Challenge Criterium), but even then it held well enough at low pressure to limp home. I will bring a spare (and sealant) if I’m venturing somewhere particularly remote.
I had negative tubeless experience for cx. A local racer compiled input from a large group of cx racers. Operator error seemed to be the central theme of bad experience. I can say i had shops set mine up that claimed expertise.(they had reputations to back it up). I actually bought a set of intensives for winter training and then gave em away before ever instaling. Just decided i dint like the idea of repeated goop loss; seemed bad for the environment.
I did pull out of my gp4000 clincher set w latex tubes a 1″ nail that was embedded a full cm while maintaining pressure. I like latex tubes for road now. So there,@frank! But i’m still not clear on why the shit works better…
@Barracuda That’s my view too. Same with electronic shifting for me.
@Nate thanks for noticing buddy. Been lurking a lot, but the muse hasn’t been moving me. Plus it’s been a tough fall/winter finding enough time to ride. Rule 9 violations galore. But yeah, we do lots of climbing around here and my mates on carbon wheels don’t seem to have braking or overheating issues on the downs. Fucking carbon wheels do tend to squeal a lot tho, major PoS disturbance.
@sgt correction. Rule #11 violations. Rule 9 was in effect this weekend. Need to post more, obviously.
@Simon
Amen brother … sniff …. ahhhhhhhhhhhh …
On the subject of all thing rubber this is a worthy read …
http://www.cyclingtips.com.au/2012/12/how-to-get-the-best-out-of-your-tyres/
I too tried tubeless and gave up on them. When the tire was punctured with a larger object the hole wouldn’t seal and the mess to install a tube was unreal due to the sealant. When it was time to replace the tire I found a lot of corrosion in the alloy rim from the sealant. Just not worth the hassle.
@G’rilla
I know exactly what you mean, so many “Experts” on youtube who do “Reviews” where they just open a box and tell you what’s in it!
I’m glad someone’s looked in to these, I’ve always thought they sound like a royal pain in the backside, I was looking at trying the homebrew tubeless setups for one of my mountain bikes but decided against it. It sounds like the majority of the benefits can be had by just running a slightly wider clincher like a 24 or 25 with a sealant like slime in it at a slightly lower pressure.
@PeakInTwoYears
We weren’t getting lucky with the rim/tire combination. The guy that was teaching me how to do it was an ex-mountain bike racer, and totally mechanically proficient. And even he was getting flustered with this particular pair. Eventually it all worked, but it was a bad first experience. I don’t foresee a second attempt. Especially for road. It’s just too easy to run tubes or sew-ups. Clincher technology is pretty damn good. Sew-ups feel really good to me. I weight 62kg, so I don’t ever have a pinch flat.
Late to the game as usual – many thanks for answering all the questions I was not asking… and doing the hard work!
They still seem to be in that place of good idea but only 90% there. I think I will wait for a new technology that will make them bullet proof and simples.
@Jeff in PetroMetro
Understood. I went all Specialized for the mtb (Roval rims) ’cause my LBS owner, a friend, gave me a good deal on the wheelset. So it all went together.
I agree about the road options. Just going to the Conti 25s has improved my ride a great deal. I don’t even want to get back on a pair of sew-ups…
@Oli – Yeah I have. Not easily, but do-able. I’ve saved a few tubis by going right through the sidewall into the tube.
@Chris
Not to mention that I can’t imagine the sealant being more of a hassle than tubular glue, which every true Velominatus should happily endure in pursuit of maximum tire love.
@frank More importantly, does sealant make you light headed in the same way that tubular glues does?
I can weigh in on this, having recently made the jump to tubeless on my #1 Alaris. The result is so far positive.
I converted stock Neuvation clincher aero 4s using Stan’s no tubes and hutchinson fusion 3s 23mms. The install is as Gianni describes, and concur with his comments and experience. The sealant money shot was minimal. I worked up a sweat getting the bead on, but it was doable. The stem nut is required, and The Rule is not violated because it does serve a function on this system, unlike the clincher tube. Gianni is right about cleanup. You must clean the braking surface thoroughly with alcohol, lest the Principle of Silence be broken first time you apply brakes on the first ride. Take the opportunity to clean the pads then too.
I switched from the Vittoria Diamanté pros; I still use them on #2, and the eternally badass MrsDr Eightzero uses those on her Cervelo. I however, am a fatass, so I’d run those at 140psi for fear of pinch flats. Had a few at lower pressures.
I am now experimenting with lower pressures on tubeless. I’m settling on about 105psi, but I want to try a little fiddling with different pressures front and back. I only have a few hundred miles on them so far. I do notice a difference in ride that is positive, but can compare it to the wheels, since I converted clinchers to tubeless. I am not a racer, and no aggressive on the bike. I like the ride, but it is unclear if it is the lower pressure or the tyres yet, the change wheel wasn’t part of my equation.
The reason I switched is to no longer carry tubes to deform my kitte. I carry a small patch kit for really serious cuts, levers and CO2. A comment earlier was “how many flats do you plan to have?” Some of this is way over done. Many of my long distance rides are with MrsDr Eightzero, and she carries at least one tube, CO2 and levers. If the weather is really shitte, I’m on #2 with clinchers. Thus, a flat in shitte weather can be repaired on the old clincher system quickly when it counts. In shitte weather, I’m likely to have a jacket on….with room for toobs. And when the weather is shitte, tell me the ride quality matters?
I am curious to she how the fusion 3s wear, and what the repairs and replacements will be like. I submit to the velominati that components of the bike comprise a ride system, and multiple bikes, equipment and procedures vary with application. Tubeless is but one part of the equation. I have no role for tubbies in my ride system. As of now.
Cost to try this is modest. I got parts from Stan, I think the tyres came from eBay new for $35 each. (Cheaper than my Vittorias.) Maybe I spent $150? A few quid, but I can go back, although the cleanup will be significant. By then it might be time for new wheels….and I can try yet another ride system component.
@Gianni
Not unless you’re a real whiz with a needle and thread and replace the whole tube. Which sounds like too much effort to me. My sensei uses tubulars with gloop in them for TTs and says he’s never had to stop for a puncture. I’ll have to ask him how long they last for before they harden up and have to be chucked.
I do have a punctured but relatively new Vitoria Pave that I keep meaning to have a go at patching.
Good work, Gianni! I have to admit I had a little preview of this since I inquired a couple weeks back (or months…I saw a few weeks for everything!)
I use a tubeless set-up on my cross bike & have been pretty happy with that. Over a year on hand-me-down Hutchinson Bulldogs set up with Stans. Only one puncture, which was a big tear that didn’t seal, and I decided it was time to put new ones on. Turns out the new Bulldogs will not go onto Ksyrium rims due to a new carbon bead. Wish I’d known that before a) wasting a few hours of time, cusses, and hurt thumbs b) buying them. (anyone need a 700×34 Bulldog tire?)
Been on Vittoria XGs now for a month or two, also tubeless. Set-up was pretty easy though one tire needed to be hit with the compressor at the shop to get a perfect seal. It would go soft in a day or two.
On the road I’m still using tubes. One latex tube in one bike, as I’ve punctured the other two (one riding, one installing!) and still have yet to find anyone I know locally with an old latex tube. Does Sint Nick deliver small latex patches made from old tubes? Maybe one day as soon as the spring when I build a bike shed I’ll venture into the land of the sew-ups.
After chatting with Gianni a few weeks back, I decided to stick with tubes on the road.
@G’rilla
Hey, when you’re constantly mainlining Awesome, it doesn’t take as long to figure out what rules and what sucks.
In troof, I probably recommended classics before I even had them in-hand. Yes, I’m that Awesome.
In unrelated news, the 3T Rotundo LTDs are absolutely revolutionary and will completely change your life and are totally different/better than the PRO model. I expect mine to arrive some time next week.
@Carl Interesting, I’ll have to try this!