Kermis: To Carbone or Not To Carbone-That is No Longer The Question
This carbon wheel issue has been burning a hole in my soul for so long. The twin headed snake of thrift and indecision (not such an impressive snake as far as twin headed snakes go) held me at the impasse for years. Having @mauibike commit to all carbon for his lifetime wheelset needs got me hot. Seeing Fabs winning Paris-Roubaix and the Ronde on his Aeolius 5.0 wheels made the fever burn higher.
Maui is a very gusty place to ride and I was loath to own some deep section rims that would be the death of me. Looking pro while getting blown off the road at speed, uncool. Bontrager has the budget to blow on high speed computing and wind tunnels to make sure Gianni is not buffeted unduly. They also use Alpina spokes with plastic inserts so the the wheel should be truable for years.
Ebay is full of people who buy tubular wheels then sell them after very light use (or their first flat tire). Voila, Gianni finally owns Fabooo’s tubular wheels.
The first impression on the first ride was holy smokes, these float uphill. The weight difference was what impressed me immediately. I take off the front wheel when transporting the bike and I still marvel at its lightness. This lightness is also noticeable when cornering and not in a good way. The flywheel effect of a heavier aluminum rim is diminished making the steering, for lack of a better term, whippy. I’m used to it now but for the first few weeks the front end felt less stable.
My wife was quite vexed that I was undroppable on climbs; these wheels were feeling better and better. The improved climbing alone was enough to make me embrace the benefit of carbon construction.
It was during the first descent of Haleakala volcano where the other lightbulb switched on in my dim brain. Unintentionally I was going into every corner faster than usual. My V-meter does not give me data to substantiate the feeling but these wheels are more impressive going down than they are going up. They are fast. When you get off the brakes on a descent the bike just hauls more ass. To add to their list of wonders, they are very stable in gusty crosswinds too. The windtunnel testing was money well spent. Score one for the boffins.
I have not done enough riding in wet weather to have an opinion on rainy day braking. This is my number one bike after all and I’ve avoided the real steep descents if I have a choice.
To address the original question in the original article; can carbon wheels be one’s everyday, go-to wheels? I now say absolutely. These aero wheels are faster in all directions, why would you deny yourself that pleasure everyday. They do cost a huge amount to money new. That is their one massive downside. They can be had reasonably if one looks at slightly used tubulars, what is not to love about that? If one buys the premise that wheels are the most important upgrade to a bike, then buying light, aero, carbon wheels is the way to go.
[kermis id=21811/]
@wiscot
My understanding is that rims in the 25mm range are mainly designed to be very lightweight and won’t provide much aero gain. 40mm and up give you increasingly better aerodynamics, but have more material in them and are a bit heavier, but also stiffer. There’s also crosswind stability to consider, with deeper rims being more susceptible to deflection. The design can mitigate this, with Enve and Zipp in particular using profiling and dimples to improve stability.
Everyone’s needs are different, so it’s hard to say what’s best for you. I think you need to decide what your priorites are, weight-aero-handling, and choose a profile that meets your needs. From what I’ve read, you won’t go wrong with the midrange Enve or Zipp rims, I think Zipp 303s are 45mm, 404s are 58mm, and there’s plenty of these in use in the pro peloton. I wish I had some personal experience to share, but sadly not yet. I fancy some Enve 6.7s, but currently lack the required funds!
@Buck Rogers
Everyone who went had an amazing looking bike. everyone.
Bloody hell, King hubs with some ENVE (or similarly understated) rims are giving me a Carbone. But can we steer clear of this talk of discs?
It will probably lead to even more specialization in bikes. Disc brakes for critierium and cross bikes (but different geometry), rim brakes for point to point races where aero advantages are important, and no brakes for the track.
Admittedly, my descent down Mt Erie this weekend had me wanting for something with a little more stopping power.
@Geraint I started off my Tubular Experience with Vittoria Corsa CX. I punctured several of them and my tire fund was getting tapped out. Touch wood, I have had much better luck with Veloflex, which have the same sort of suppleness/ride quality but have better punctured resistance especially if aged 6+ mos. Have a set of Vittoria pave tubs stretching but havent ridden them so can’t compare.
@Nate thanks again fella. I’ve been pleased with the puncture resistance of the Vittoria clinchers, especially the Pave CGs, but I might see if I can pick up some Veloflex in the winter sales. They should be nicely aged by the time I’ve raised the funds for the wheels.
@wiscot
Depth is part of the equation; profile may be more important. I’ve ridden a set of Aeolus 7 wheels (deep profile), and in most situations for someone of my, um, stature they’d be great. A little slow to get up to speed, but they flew once they were moving and were managable, albeit with some attention, even in medium gusty conditions.
My wheels are a 35mm profile Aeolus, and they’re about as versatile as could be. I’ve ridden them up/down big passes in Colorado, and they’re wonderful for the flats, small rollers and even the few punchy climbs we have north of you in the Fox Valley.
Most of the folks with whom I ride who are on Carbone are on a medium/50mmish profile. I was waffling between that and a 35mm profile like I have now; if I was buying new I’d still be waffling, but when these Aeolus D3 3s came to be available I couldn’t pass them by. Perhaps I’m giving up a tiny aero something with 35mm vs 50mm, but I don’t race and have no regrets………. and don’t think about going to a higher profile (at least until something new starts getting rave reviews).
Of course, we’re talking tubulars. For me carbon and clincher just don’t make sense — unless we’re talking disc and I’m not going there yet for road riding.
@Ken Ho
Bugger off, will ya? Heretic.
@teleguy57
It also depends on the geometry of the bike – some bikes are twitchier and more susceptible to forces on the steering axis. A mate recently upgraded his TT bike – went from the previous Speed Concept to the newest. Along with that change, despite logging thousands of kilometres on his Aeolus 9 (and he’s got serious handling skills), he felt that the new bike, with a slightly lower position, is less stable with the 9s, and moved to an Aeolus 7 front.
(and as a counter-point, rider weight and wheel depth don’t correlate. My mum picks the discwheel and deep front, no matter the conditions. It’s always the fastest option…)
@ tessar
Contrary to much belief, a disc wheel is actually more stable in windy conditions, so your Mum knows what she is on about. As for the front, she obviously has mad skillz, and might find little difference between a 50mm and 80mm profile. Bet she rides a diamond too, not a slug.
I gotta say every time I take the HED Stingers off after a race I am a little sad. LOOOOVE to be rolling around on those every day but nope, it just can’t be. Not only the expense of the 15-20 flats I get every year (long wet season), but the wearing down of a set of particularly pricey rims at an alarming rate. I train on C24’s, they are tough, cheap to maintain and plenty light. Come race day (every weekend), I can put the tubbies on and know they are sweet and ready to roll. Watching the brake track on the C24’s disappear through the wet is enough to stop me riding the tubbies daily. They only last me a couple of years and at over double the price of the C24’s, I just can’t fit it into the budget.
@Ken Ho
Aye, which is her biggest advantage: On a windy day – exactly when a disc is fastest – the opposition moves to the shallowest wheels they can find. Years of riding in the gusty desert plains makes you intimately familiar with crosswind reactions…
Thanks for all the feedback guys. I’m 6’1′ and in the low 180 lbs range. Terrain is invariably lumpy with surfaces that could be described as pretty decent. With something in the 38mm range, can you use long valves or is it best to use extenders? I’d rather not mess with those.
@wiscot
Ok, my experience:
I have 24’s, 38’s and 58’s carbon clinchers.
38’s are the perfect sweet spot do anything wheel. 58’s are good and fast once you get them up to speed but obviously are cross wind affected. They are roughly 200 grams heavier than the 38’s (1550 grams as opposed to 1350 grams). For my money, you want to ride the lightest possible wheels, especially for when the road goes up or when you want a wheel that accelerates well. That’s why I have the 24’s as well (1290 grams). I use these on my CX race bike. Good for punchy climbs.
With the 38’s, you just purchase tubes that have either 50 or 60 mm valves. The 58’s make this more difficult as you will need a 20mm valve extender, or alternatively buy 80mm tubes.
I’ve done the research for myself about the weight benefits of Tubular versus clincher. For myself, I’ve concluded that weight wise, it’s a break even proposition. The weight you save on the rim goes back into the inherently heavier tubular tire casing. Of course you have to use light tubes like Schwalbe SV20’s or Conti Supersonics to keep it even but the rolling benefits are there as well.
Also, because I’m a tight arse, I’m much happier to replace a $20 tube than a $100 tire.
@mouse
Here’s a thought.
Reliability > aero > weight.
Here’s another.
Regardless of any other consideration, remember that anyone who rocks up to a casual ride on carbon tubs better be ready to dish out the V, or look like a COTHO if dropped.
@Gianni
Heat build up has been a concern for some time – as too performance in the wet. Reynolds suggestion…
http://www.reynoldscycling.com/wheels/small-parts
@wiscot
@mouse
Just got back from 90 min with winds in the high teens (mph) gusting into the low 20s. My Aeolus 3s (35mm) rode wonderfully. I agree with @mouse that 35-40ish is the premier do-all wheelset.
Not to do the clincher/tubular debate thing, but I much more often wear out tubulars than have them puncture. And I think the advantages of a tubular rim multiply when you go to carbon. Hence for me, it’s all about good valve extenders (even with the 35mm depth) rather than stem length on inner tubes. The red Bontagers work just fine for me.
Quick update to the above post: per Weatherspark, wind speed was a steady 26mph with gusts to 34 mph. No wonder it was tough grinding into the wind! Make the handling of the Aeolus 3s even more impressive — I think I was steadier in the wind than my compatriot was on his low-profile clinchers.
I knew I was asking for advice in the right place. Thanks guys!
@Ken Ho
That’s such total bullshit and precisely why the world hates roadies. Ride whatever Looks Fantastic and gets you stoked about riding your bike. I have so many carbon wheels in my stable, my real treat is pulling out my Ambrosio Nemsis’ from their Campa wheel bags, taking a deep sniff of the $400 worth of FMB’s glued on, slip them into the bike I’m riding that day, and feeling that cooshy box section love. If I join a group ride on my lightweight carbon tubulars its just because I don’t feel like wasting those beauties on a ride that isn’t worth it.
Never judge a book by its cover, unless that book is wearing a YJA, has hairy legs, has a visor on their helmet, violates the principle of silence or is otherwise violating the principle pillars of The Rules, (like using a fucking mirror, ahem).
@frank
Ah, that’s more like the Fronk I remember. I was getting confused by the polite one.
However, I’ll suggest you have no fucking idea why the world hates roadies. You come form Holland, the most cycle friendly country in the world, and live in Seattle, the most cycle friendly city in North America, and miles ahead of anywhere in the UK or especially Oz. In the several years I’ve been looking at this site, I’ve never heard you mention getting shit thrown at you, getting shaved by bogans or being mown down by a soccer mum. Not to say that you haven’t, but nary a mention. I’m not even sure you’ve been strafed by a magpie.
I’ve had a thousand reasons for hate thrown at me, and flash wheels was never one of them. Shaved legs and lycra, OTOH, feature heavily.
People don’t really hate cyclists anyway. They hate their small lives, they hate commuting, they hate the job they are on their way to, and left too little time to get to, because they fucked about instead of getting there early. They hate people with little enough to do that they can waste time cycling and secretly envy the fitness, courage and independence that cyclists demonstrate.
They just re-direct all that hate and frustration at bikes when they happen to be in the way. They also hate the loss of their youth, and bikes represent the carefree freedom of youth like nothing else.
It is more than a little ironic that this site promotes helmet use quite strongly, but despises mirrors. Anyone who has any clue about safety knows that PPE is at the bottom of the hierarchy of controls, and only comes into play when every other level has failed.
You really need to come ride the pinch points over here sometime.
@Ken Ho
Ironic..really? Mirrors are just plain ugly. Does you neck not function? Helmets genuinely keep you alive when used for it’s intended function..in the vast majority of cases mirrors create the illusion of safety. I often see more people weaving all over the place cause they were trying to use a mirror.
And Frank is just trying to lull you into a false sense of security..he’s making you think he’s grumpy so you’ll follow the next tidbit of advice he gives, which will be another revenge move like trying to get you to sniff acetone.
Carbon is restricted to my seat post. Give me good old metal alloys any day. Steel frame, alloy components, and aluminum wheels (really light weight wheels) comprise my number one ride. The bike is light and fast. But, I am a bit of a retro grouch…
@frank
I agree it’s total bullshit but would say it’s a big reason why more people don’t join clubs. They’re afraid that their kit either isn’t good enough or it’s too good, and they’ll have the piss taken by the club’s clique who’ll ride them off their wheel or snigger to each other and generally make them feel excluded.
So, in order to join a ride, you have to have pro-level fitness and exactly the right combination of mid-level bike and not-quite-matching kit? Bollocks.
@Geraint
…er…@Frank did I miss something there, it looked like you were not only specifying the technical requirements for bike and kit matching but also the possible the number, circumference and weight of ones bollocks too? Did you have an IT meltdown mid sentence? Please continue we are all ears…(insert the appropriate emoticon, I am off to self administer a mini pump lashing).
@Haldy
My Zefal Spy mirror is a subtle inconspicuous thing, while my helmet is a fugly dunce cap that looks like an alien took a dump on my head. Dunno HTF anyone thinks that helmets look fantastic. Too much brown-nosing to FRank.
And no, helmets do not genuinely keep people alive. Helmets are rated to a 20 kph impact, and are as much use as sheep guts in a franger fight if you get it by a truck. Not getting hit keeps me alive, and my mirror stops me getting hit at pinch points. Cyclists die mostly when struck from behind here in Oz.
@Ken Ho
Well, without wishing to restart the argument but some years ago I went clean over a car that hit me from behind, as he came onto a roundabout a mirror would not have helped me as I saw him coming anyway and tried to turn away from him. I landed on the back of my shoulder and head. Helmet was clean split in two. No doubt in my mind without a helmet I’d most likely be dead or if lucky a severe TBI.
@Haldy
Huh? the weavers I see are the ones incapable of turning their heads and keeping the bike on track at the same time!
David
@Ken Ho
So right about the bikes being an easy target.
I was on a sportive ride on Sunday – not a massive event, just a small club sportive. Owing to a mechanical nightmare I was much later around than I had planned and got caught in the traffic leaving Sunday lunch from the picturesque pubs and villages of leafy Surrey.
So I’m going through one little village called Downe which is very lovely but basically a single lane road in an out with cars parked down one side. Two cars cannot pass unless one pulls in but once you get 40-50 or more cars trying to go in opposite directions it becomes impossible.
However there are of course a few feet at the side where bikes can go quite happily, if not at high speed.
So I’m riding past and some tosser in the back of a convertible Mercedes – engaged in a particularly difficult attempt to allow a truck past – starts yelling at me about how I should stop because “We can’t get through here.”
I told him it looked fine to me, see you later.
It amazes me how people in cars always think someone else is the problem, not them.
And finally
No it doesn’t. It’s one of the few places where people tend to respect the right of others to make a choice, or at least don’t get bogged down in endless debates.
@ChrisO Dulwich Paragon’s Ride of the Falling Leaves? Wasn’t on it myself, but rode part of the route in the morning.
As to motorists in queues getting upset by cyclists passing them, I see it every day when commuting, I can only think it’s jealousy – there they are sitting in their boy racer capable of producing 10K watts and I zip by using 200. As to mirrors, not keen on them for a bike, only wish drivers used the fuckers they have on their vehicles occasionally.
@Ken Ho
I am not gonna sit here and say that helmets look good. They surely do not. But in my 20+ years of racing..helmets have saved my life on 3 occasions, and when I hit the deck I was going far faster than 20kph…
As for the mirror…well…nevermind.
@davidlhill
Yes, there are quite a few of those out there as well, but I have watched people run into things because they were trying to use their subtle, inconspicuous mirrors Or, just as bad, crash because they hit the mirror on something.
RE: Mirrors. I hate them for the same reason I hate tinted windows. Because I’m not sure if you’ve seen me or not. If I come up on another cyclist with a mirror, I have no idea if they’re even looking around. But if I see them do a crazy-Ivan, I can be reasonably sure they know I’m there. If I’m going to make a left turn across a lane, then a head check alerts anyone behind me that I’m looking for a line and I mean business.
Carbone wheels with disc brakes actually makes zero sense if you remember why you’re buying the carbone wheels in the first place. You’re paying a massive sum of money to have a wheel that is more aerodynamic than an aluminum wheel… then you’re paying a small fortune more to add dick breaks that negate (and then some) any and all aero advantage that your grossly overpriced wheels provided. So what are you left with? A very thin wallet and a bike that is no lighter and no more aerodynamic than the guy that only spent a few bucks on decent aluminum wheels. So where’s the benefit? Is it purely to maximum Fredliness and show everyone that you’re on the cutting edge of bike technology? I’ll stick to rim brakes if I decide to go carbone. In fact, since it looks like most people will be going carbone and disc by next year, I could even stick to my aluminum wheels and suffer zero performance disadvantage.
Useless people are useless people, regardless of equipment.
Nice Firefly reference.
@Ken Ho
Indeed. I tend to think carbon wheels, at least the deep dish variety, should only be ridden by a racer (preferably professional).
@ChrissyOne
Spoken like a motorcycle survivor.
@therealpeel
Really? So I rode/trained/raced on my mid range alloy bike complete with Sora and box section 32spoke rims for a couple of years. Got me all the way into the pointy end of B grade even. After that time I had saved some money and bought an all carbon, second from the top of the range aero race bike complete with 60mm full carbon clinchers. That’s how it comes, I didn’t spec those wheels although why wouldn’t you?!
So, I can’t bring that bike on bunch rides? I have to go and buy a set of box section rims to do that? I sold my old bike to fund the new one so no going back to those wheels and why would I want to anyway? Why would I want to sully the ride of this bike by putting shit wheels on it? Do I have to go and buy a set of training wheels do I? Maybe I have to go and spend $1000 on some C24’s so I can have some nice wheels that meet your requirements of appropriateness? Since low profile alloys can be quite expensive on the top shelf, your argument cannot be based on price snobbery, but maybe should extend to ultra light alloy rims too? They give a performance boost especially in the hills where my deep section carbons won’t.
Next time you scoff at a ride on what you consider in appropriate wheels, just maybe they are the only wheels they have? Just lucky for me I have improved more and now race A grade so at least around these parts I don’t get dropped if someone with low profile alloys gets offended at my deep section carbons and pushes up the pace. I can deal.
I find myself telling my kids “don’t worry about what others a doing, just worry about yourself” I think some people need to take that advice and forget about what equipment people are on and just be happy they are along for the ride.
@Puffy
Hey, I’m down with people using what they like. I surely do.
I was more suggesting that a lot of people will make snide comments or give people crap for using gear that outranks their skill level.
The expression, “carbon craplet”, is evidence of this tendency.
@Puffy,
Having “over-speced” gear is not peculiar to cyclists, how many people do you see toting a DSLR around which they always use on auto mode? How many people wear full alpine clothing to walk down to the shops in the rain and how many of us are using computers/tablets/phones which we only ever use to do simple typing and browsing, ignoring the other 99.99% of their ability?
We are all guilty of desiring male jewellery to some extent, the only problem comes when we convince ourselves that having newer, shiner kit makes us better at what we are doing, when in reality it all comes down to rule V.
@markb
Yep that was it. ROTFL. It usually coincides with my daughter’s birthday so it’s one of the events I can pretty much count on being back from Dubai for. Last couple of years have been decent weather.
I had a bit of a nightmare though. Got a flat coming off Toy’s Hill, checked and changed, lasted 200 metres. Checked it again, new tube, 200m, pssssss. Now seriously pissed off, tyre checked by riding companion, Jules, nothing we could feel or see but they seemed to be snakebite punctures in the same place near a spoke hole although the rim tape was fine but I put a boot where it seemed to be, got to the bottom and heard the dreaded sound again.
By now we were out of tubes so Jules rode on while I called the Velomissus for emergency pickup. She was going to be at least an hour and a half so I had a closer look and could see that the tyre had two small holes at the side of the rim, only visible when the tyre was turned out. I think what was happening was that when it was fully inflated the tube was pushing into the holes and touching the metal or Kevlar threads. So I used a Lezyne patch to repair my tube and a boot in the right place and managed to get to the end.
I seriously considered riding straight home instead of going to the end at Dulwich in case anyone looked up my finishing time and thinks it took me five hours.
@Puffy
More power to you. Ride what you got. I too was riding a Sora equipped aluminum trek for more years than I care to admit. You are racing, right? Maybe not a pro, but still racing. Its my opinion, why is your Lycra all in a bunch?
@therealpeel
I’m going to ride my Faboo wheels all the time because I can. My friends can take pleasure in dropping me on a climb even with my badass wheels, all the better. They are just more fun to ride because they make one faster. Maybe not fast enough but faster.
@Puffy You are in the right here, @therealpeel is just in violation of Rules #2, #3, and more critically Rule #43.