Categories: Look ProTechnology

To Carbone or Not To Carbone?

photo by bikesoup.cc

That is the question. Are carbon wheels a viable option for everyday riding? Should carbon wheels be your go-to wheels rather than your just-for-racing wheels? I don’t really race and I don’t own any carbon wheels and I wonder. Granted, every professional is and has been on carbon wheels for many years so it’s easy to think we should be on them too. Brett’s review of ENVE wheels certainly made a case for them, who dosen’t want to go faster, all the time? Frank has raved about how fast his Zipp 303s are since he first put them on his Cervelo. I hefted his Café Roubaix Haleakala climbing wheels and one dosen’t need to heft them as much as hold them down, they are unbelievably light, sub-1000 grams light.

Those wheels are too light for the rigors of the East Maui Loop pavé and potholes, or so I thought. I talked Frank out of using them and he did the Cogal on Zipp 404s and 25mm clinchers. In retrospect, with bigger tires I think he would have been OK doing the Cogal on his climbing wheels. If ultralight carbon wheels are tough enough for that ride then when are they inappropriateAmbrosio golden ticket aluminum box section rims versus Zipp 303s, let’s see, Boonen just won Paris-Roubaix on the Zipp 404s. That is the end of the discussion. It should be the beginning of the end for three-cross box section aluminum wheels. If Zipp 303s win Paris-Roubaix then when wouldn’t one use carbon wheels?

@chiasticon-

Surprised to see so much talk of carbon wheels for a Cogal; which is, essentially, not much different than a club run. I understand Frank wanting to run them for his climb up Haleakala, since he was going for a PR up a huge friggin’ volcano and I’m sure they certainly helped. But as an every day wheel for a club/social/training ride? At least within the circles I ride in, that’s a good reason to get laughed off the ride (comments would especially come from the local racers). It’s like saying “I can’t keep up with you guys without these wheels!” Or at least that’s how people generally take it.

…but how common is it among Velominati to use carbon wheels on an everyday basis?

On the Cogal ride, out of seven riders there were two people on carbon wheels. On our Sunday club ride there is maybe one user. I see a lot of bikes on the site with drool-worthy carbon wheels. Are aluminum rims old school? Are we being played here or are we all just a little behind the times or are we saving our money for better bike investments? 

Strong, light, cheap. Pick two – I’m going to attribute this to Keith Bontrager as it was etched on my Bontrager’s stem cap. I’d like to add a fourth adjective, aerodynamic, but my tiny brain can’t compute how picking two or three might work so cleverly.

Strong

There are not many high end frames made from aluminum anymore. Could the same case be made for wheels? The aluminum box rim may be light but it is not strong unless you lace a lot of crossed spokes on it. I have some 80s Campagnolo Vento deep wheels, aero maybe, not light and the ride is a bit harsh. An unlaced carbon rim may not be lighter than a light weight aluminum rim but it is much stronger.

Light

I’m afraid carbon is going to win here. While a case could have been made for the Ambrosio golden ticket being strong, it is not light. There are some semi-aero aluminum wheels out there that are light but they make me nervous with their low weight limit.

Cheap

Boing! There it is. Strong and cheap is aluminum’s territory. One pays $1100US more for Easton’s Carbon EC90 SLX wheels than the aluminum EA 90 SLX wheelset. 200 grams is the only difference between the two models. If that was the end of the comparisons I wouldn’t lose any sleep over my lack of carbone wheels but there is still one other factor.

Aerodynamic

Carbon wins this easily. The carbon can be a fairing or integral to the wheel’s strength but carbon’s moldability is the future. Formula 1 cars are no longer made of aluminum. Boonen must have saved significant energy on the long paved run-in to the pavé sectors using his Zipps, maybe enough energy to help burn everyone off his wheel later on. @Tommy Tubulare’s Cervelo with Campagnolo Bora deep carbon wheels makes my heart skip a beat. Carbon wheels look badass. 

Conclusion

Once again I have no informed opinion having never ridden carbon wheels. Would I love to see my bike looking extremely pro with some deep section carbon wheels? Yes. Would it be very bad to be shelled out the back end of a group ride while riding said wheels? Yes, it would be very bad.

Should my wheels be worth more than the rest of the bike? Who cares. Let’s address @chiasticon’s question, who’s riding carbon and when?

[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/j.andrews3@comcast.net/carbone wheels/”/]

 

 

Gianni

Gianni has left the building.

View Comments

  • @Ryan

    Nemesis (aka Golden Tickets)/Sapim spokes/Record hubs = best all around wheels. Full stop

    Or Royce hubs.

  • @snoov

    @razmaspaz

    @Mark1

    Rotational weight... you have to keep the weight of the wheel turning, harder the more weight is at the rim - rollers or road no difference.

    Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I thought this had been debunked. I don't think that at speed a wheel requires any effort to maintain its rotation. This is evidenced by:

    @Isaac Newton

    An object in motion tends to stay in motion.

    Once the wheel is at speed it should be friction (road and bearings) slowing it down. Nothing more. Aerodynamics notwithstanding.

    Wheel weight is a concern for climbing and for spinning up, and I suppose the weight plays into rolling resistance, but when you are talking about 200g on a 65kg object, it should be a non factor.

    Of course I could be completely wrong.

    The greatest difference between road and rollers is that in the road one's momentum (your body) keeps the bike moving forward and therefore, wheels turning as well. On rollers you'll find that when you stop pedalling you're wheels stop pretty fast from the friction. There's possibly more friction on rollers than on the road as there are three contact points instead of two but it could be the case that there's not enough difference to worry about it.

    At speed I'd say a wheel needs at least a little effort to stay in motion even if it's off the ground as the spokes are overcoming some air resistance and the hub bearings are overcoming frictional resistance so if no force is input they'll slow down.

    My question to the scientific among the Velominati is: Does a heavier rim need more force input to maintain speed than a lighter rim or is it the case that once both rims are at the same speed it takes the same amount of force to maintain the speed. I understand that heavier rims will require more energy to get them up to speed and that their extra weight means that they have more momentum. (Assume same aero qualities, hubs, spokes tyres etc. etc.)

    The thing about climbing is that more gravity comes into play. As I understand it, one is accelerating all the time so to speak.

    I'm not a scientist by any standard, so this may very well be total bunk - but I keep thinking of that bike with the huge rear disc wheel that Moser used in his attempt to break the hour record. I'm wondering if the eggheads who came up with that thing were calculating with a certain 'flywheel' effect. If we assume that such a huge disc wheel weighs considerably more than a 'standard' modern wheel, my guess is that you really wouldn't want to ride a criterium on such a bike. Hard to brake - and hard to get it back to speed after each sharp curve. Climbing would be very bad as well. But on a fixed gear, in a velodrome? Hmmm... Could it be that if you use a big flywheel like that, you can actually - relatively speaking - 'coast' a bit more often without losing speed - or at least, take the pressure off, just a little, without losing your momentum as quickly as you would on smaller, lighter wheels? (But would that then also imply that there is, indeed, a difference between 'heavy' and 'light' at the same, constant speed? I'm beginning to think... not - cause if there was, shouldn't Moser have crushed that record? The mind boggles...)

  • @morten okbo

    i'd chose mont ventoux in provence. and madonna del ghisalo at lago di come.

    +1 , there's a plan in place for a few months in europe next year, with some rides of course, and while it needs funding it has the approval of the VMH and will result in brownie points. No carbon wheels are ever going to do that.

  • @frank

    @ scaler911

    Fucking hell that baby is looking great! Yikes.

    Thanks.

    And yes, train heavy, race light - for sure. If you race, that's a great plan. If not, ride what makes it fun for you.

    I guess what I mean to say is if you have the option to have both, save the carbon tubs for the days that you know you are going to have fun. If you ride them all the time then they aren't special. I'm really glad I rode mine on the Seattle Cogal for example. Great day out with the mates, and even if it was placebo effect, they made me feel fast-ish. Until that last climb up from the river (or lake, that part of my memory is missing), then I may as well have had wagon wheels on the whip.

    Incidentally, "train heavy" is why I'm having an IPA right now. Just to build up the guns.

    @Sluggo

    @frank ...not doing anything wrong, they fit. but with wheel flex they rub (51cm frame). And that's what I'm saying, why do they show case a frame and fork that isn't actually what it is? You had to change out a good fork just to fit a slightly bigger tire. The longer wheel based / wider stayed frame is a "Mud Frame" you and I can not buy. Some might ride the old RS but that's not and R3 or much of a race frame.

    Gotcha. My R3 did require the fd cable to be zip tied to the size a bit for the FMB's which measure bigger than a regular 25mm because they're so awesome. But the Conti 25"²s required no tie and run fine in the VMH's 51cm R3SL. Strange about the wheel rub, not having any issue with that, but my wheels are all pretty burly.

  • I received "It's All About the Bike" for the holidays and I just got to the wheelbuilding chapter. Guess which hubs he uses? I could have after Frank's article on them...Royce!

    I'm pretty pumped these days as I've finally climbed another rung on the Follower ladder: I now have a Campa N+1 wheelset & a SRAM/Shimano N+1 wheelset. It feels kingly to have a back-up set for all the steeds & really nice that if I head to do any real climbing I can just grab the wheels with the most appropriate cassette.

    Souleur - I'd say that is a level-headed, well-reasoned approach.

    I officially just moved beyond Lampre Man winter weight status!!! My bibs finally feel like bibs again and not a girdle. I now have eleven or so months to promise myself to not let it happen again next winter.

  • @ErikdR

    @snoov

    @razmaspaz

    @Mark1

    Rotational weight... you have to keep the weight of the wheel turning, harder the more weight is at the rim - rollers or road no difference.

    Maybe I'm not understanding your point, but I thought this had been debunked. I don't think that at speed a wheel requires any effort to maintain its rotation. This is evidenced by:

    @Isaac Newton

    An object in motion tends to stay in motion.

    Once the wheel is at speed it should be friction (road and bearings) slowing it down. Nothing more. Aerodynamics notwithstanding.

    Wheel weight is a concern for climbing and for spinning up, and I suppose the weight plays into rolling resistance, but when you are talking about 200g on a 65kg object, it should be a non factor.

    Of course I could be completely wrong.

    The greatest difference between road and rollers is that in the road one's momentum (your body) keeps the bike moving forward and therefore, wheels turning as well. On rollers you'll find that when you stop pedalling you're wheels stop pretty fast from the friction. There's possibly more friction on rollers than on the road as there are three contact points instead of two but it could be the case that there's not enough difference to worry about it.

    At speed I'd say a wheel needs at least a little effort to stay in motion even if it's off the ground as the spokes are overcoming some air resistance and the hub bearings are overcoming frictional resistance so if no force is input they'll slow down.

    My question to the scientific among the Velominati is: Does a heavier rim need more force input to maintain speed than a lighter rim or is it the case that once both rims are at the same speed it takes the same amount of force to maintain the speed. I understand that heavier rims will require more energy to get them up to speed and that their extra weight means that they have more momentum. (Assume same aero qualities, hubs, spokes tyres etc. etc.)

    The thing about climbing is that more gravity comes into play. As I understand it, one is accelerating all the time so to speak.

    I'm not a scientist by any standard, so this may very well be total bunk - but I keep thinking of that bike with the huge rear disc wheel that Moser used in his attempt to break the hour record. I'm wondering if the eggheads who came up with that thing were calculating with a certain 'flywheel' effect. If we assume that such a huge disc wheel weighs considerably more than a 'standard' modern wheel, my guess is that you really wouldn't want to ride a criterium on such a bike. Hard to brake - and hard to get it back to speed after each sharp curve. Climbing would be very bad as well. But on a fixed gear, in a velodrome? Hmmm... Could it be that if you use a big flywheel like that, you can actually - relatively speaking - 'coast' a bit more often without losing speed - or at least, take the pressure off, just a little, without losing your momentum as quickly as you would on smaller, lighter wheels? (But would that then also imply that there is, indeed, a difference between 'heavy' and 'light' at the same, constant speed? I'm beginning to think... not - cause if there was, shouldn't Moser have crushed that record? The mind boggles...)

    Larger wheel has less rolling resistance, so that would have been at least part of the impetus. TT and pursuit "funny bikes" of the era used the smaller front for aerodynamics but kept the larger rear for less rolling resistance since it's less of an aero concern. 

  • @frank

    @Ryan

    Nemesis (aka Golden Tickets)/Sapim spokes/Record hubs = best all around wheels. Full stop

    Or Royce hubs.

    pure righteousness, aboslute purity

    i have to find me some Royce hubs!

  • Just watched some stages of the Tour of Qatar & those new aero helmets are all over the place. I think they look ugly as.

    Wonder how long it will be until someone shows up to a group ride in one...

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