Categories: Look ProTechnology

To Carbone or Not To Carbone?

photo by bikesoup.cc

That is the question. Are carbon wheels a viable option for everyday riding? Should carbon wheels be your go-to wheels rather than your just-for-racing wheels? I don’t really race and I don’t own any carbon wheels and I wonder. Granted, every professional is and has been on carbon wheels for many years so it’s easy to think we should be on them too. Brett’s review of ENVE wheels certainly made a case for them, who dosen’t want to go faster, all the time? Frank has raved about how fast his Zipp 303s are since he first put them on his Cervelo. I hefted his Café Roubaix Haleakala climbing wheels and one dosen’t need to heft them as much as hold them down, they are unbelievably light, sub-1000 grams light.

Those wheels are too light for the rigors of the East Maui Loop pavé and potholes, or so I thought. I talked Frank out of using them and he did the Cogal on Zipp 404s and 25mm clinchers. In retrospect, with bigger tires I think he would have been OK doing the Cogal on his climbing wheels. If ultralight carbon wheels are tough enough for that ride then when are they inappropriateAmbrosio golden ticket aluminum box section rims versus Zipp 303s, let’s see, Boonen just won Paris-Roubaix on the Zipp 404s. That is the end of the discussion. It should be the beginning of the end for three-cross box section aluminum wheels. If Zipp 303s win Paris-Roubaix then when wouldn’t one use carbon wheels?

@chiasticon-

Surprised to see so much talk of carbon wheels for a Cogal; which is, essentially, not much different than a club run. I understand Frank wanting to run them for his climb up Haleakala, since he was going for a PR up a huge friggin’ volcano and I’m sure they certainly helped. But as an every day wheel for a club/social/training ride? At least within the circles I ride in, that’s a good reason to get laughed off the ride (comments would especially come from the local racers). It’s like saying “I can’t keep up with you guys without these wheels!” Or at least that’s how people generally take it.

…but how common is it among Velominati to use carbon wheels on an everyday basis?

On the Cogal ride, out of seven riders there were two people on carbon wheels. On our Sunday club ride there is maybe one user. I see a lot of bikes on the site with drool-worthy carbon wheels. Are aluminum rims old school? Are we being played here or are we all just a little behind the times or are we saving our money for better bike investments? 

Strong, light, cheap. Pick two – I’m going to attribute this to Keith Bontrager as it was etched on my Bontrager’s stem cap. I’d like to add a fourth adjective, aerodynamic, but my tiny brain can’t compute how picking two or three might work so cleverly.

Strong

There are not many high end frames made from aluminum anymore. Could the same case be made for wheels? The aluminum box rim may be light but it is not strong unless you lace a lot of crossed spokes on it. I have some 80s Campagnolo Vento deep wheels, aero maybe, not light and the ride is a bit harsh. An unlaced carbon rim may not be lighter than a light weight aluminum rim but it is much stronger.

Light

I’m afraid carbon is going to win here. While a case could have been made for the Ambrosio golden ticket being strong, it is not light. There are some semi-aero aluminum wheels out there that are light but they make me nervous with their low weight limit.

Cheap

Boing! There it is. Strong and cheap is aluminum’s territory. One pays $1100US more for Easton’s Carbon EC90 SLX wheels than the aluminum EA 90 SLX wheelset. 200 grams is the only difference between the two models. If that was the end of the comparisons I wouldn’t lose any sleep over my lack of carbone wheels but there is still one other factor.

Aerodynamic

Carbon wins this easily. The carbon can be a fairing or integral to the wheel’s strength but carbon’s moldability is the future. Formula 1 cars are no longer made of aluminum. Boonen must have saved significant energy on the long paved run-in to the pavé sectors using his Zipps, maybe enough energy to help burn everyone off his wheel later on. @Tommy Tubulare’s Cervelo with Campagnolo Bora deep carbon wheels makes my heart skip a beat. Carbon wheels look badass. 

Conclusion

Once again I have no informed opinion having never ridden carbon wheels. Would I love to see my bike looking extremely pro with some deep section carbon wheels? Yes. Would it be very bad to be shelled out the back end of a group ride while riding said wheels? Yes, it would be very bad.

Should my wheels be worth more than the rest of the bike? Who cares. Let’s address @chiasticon’s question, who’s riding carbon and when?

[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/j.andrews3@comcast.net/carbone wheels/”/]

 

 

Gianni

Gianni has left the building.

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  • @CanuckChuck

    @gregorio

    Dura Ace C24 CL shod with 25"²s for Gran Fondo and other long rides - sub 1400 gr carbon/aluminum composites.

    My brotha from anotha motha!

    Same here. Giant S-R2 with Schwalbe Durano Plus for training; Dura Ace 24's for fondo's and TT's. The D-A wheels are totally "les genoux de l'abeille' if you ask me. Unflexy in corners, no wind-up; strong, comfy - and fast.

  • @unversio

    @Gianni

    @mouse

    I agree that the old tubbies and box section mavic gp4 aluminum rims were pretty exciting in 1980. But really. Let's move forward.

    They're still too good to leave behind. And they're awesome!

    I agree. I run my gp4's/campy SR hubs as my winter/all rounder wheels because they perfect for the rough London roads. They float like a magic carpet and in the wet the Conti's are stickier than shit on a blanket.  It's got nothing to do with '80's sentimentality', it's just plain pragmatism. They've a proven track record, easy to repair/replace and the hubs look like jewels. What more do I need.

  • @G'rilla

    People have been convinced by marketing that weight and spoke count are all that matters.

    This is completely wrong..

    There are many questions more important than carbon or clincher.

    Yes, this. On top of such factors as flex, area catching crosswinds, and whatnot, it is also generally tricky, to say the least, to assume that a 1400 gr wheelset is by definition better than a 1600 gr wheelset. I once came across a good illustration of one of the aspects, which went roughly like this:

    Imagine three identical racing bikes. Next to each bike, there are two lumps (say, the size of burger buns) of some pliable material (clay or lead, or whatever) weighing a pound each. These two pounds of material need to be added to the bikes. On bike nr. 1, the material is lumped together and rolled into a fat cylinder, which is then stuffed into the bottle cage. On bike nr. 2, the lumps are pounded into thick slabs which are wrapped around the axles/hubs of both wheels. On bike nr. 3, the lumps are rolled out into long and narrow 'strips' and applied all the way around the rims of both wheels, between the rim tape and the inner tube.

    All three bikes (still) weigh the same, and the wheels on bikes 2 & 3 also weigh the same. Which one would you choose for a crit? Or for a time trial on the flat with few curves? Which bike would @Frank choose for climbing Haleakala?

    By the way: nice post, @Gianni

  • if you can keep up with your friends on a training ride you are in the clear, carbon or not. no? don't spend money on carbon wheels. spend it on two trips instead. and bring your bike. now. where would you go to ride? i'd chose mont ventoux in provence. and madonna del ghisalo at lago di come.

    i think it's worth more than a pair of zipps. and it is surely a more fun way to browse the internet that worrying about weight or stiffness.

    too many pro's have told me this over the years. just train more, loose some weight, get stronger and the zipp difference is of no concern.

    yes? no?

  • @piwakawaka unless your rims are the very rare variable section type, then any particular cross section slice of rim will be moving through a space occupied by the previous cross section slice. There is no air to be displaced.

    Any benefit that you are experiencing over an hour on the rollers will come down to other variables, tyre pressure, tyre rolling resistance, quality of the bearings in the hub and the state of the engine on the day.

  • @Daccordi Rider Please keep an eye on your brake tracks - my guess is that, after 25,000km, they are probably more than a little... concave.  This tends to lead to the rim blowing apart when you least expect it!

  • @Marcus

    Like others, cannot see the point of carbon clinchers. They seem like a dirty little compromise - and lend themselves to being ridden by arseholes who don't race their bikes but like being seen as fast or cool in their regular bunch. "I dont want to fuck about with tubbies on my regular rides but i want to have carbon wheels". I have the feeling that most alu/carbon clinchers are very rarely called upon to provide aerodynamic benefit because they are invariably ridden by cunts hiding in big bunches going slow. Those are the same sort of areseholes that Gunny Hartman said wouldn't even have the common courtesy to provide a reacharound...

    I would suggest that if every aspect of purchasing bike equipment needed a point other than 'looking fast or cool' 95% of cyclists would be riding around on £500 hacks and the the cycling industry would be on its arse. (I guess this goes for many other industries - cars, cameras, phones)

    What's so wrong with wanting to look like a cool cunt anyway?

  • Carbone all the way for me too.

    Fair weather on my No.1 I run Enve 6.7 tubs on 23mm Veloflex Criterium tubs. No finer combination of rim / rubber can I imagine.

    Rule 9 / shitty roads sees the spring classic set a la Fronk come to the blacktop. Nemesis / Royce classic 32 hole 3 cross running 24mm Challenge Strada tubs. Really nice and rapidly becoming a fave  for the shear abuse they withstand and the way they get better after every ride.

    I have a new bike curently being made which is a lugged stainless frame and fork. It will run another set of Nemesis Royce which I handbuilt last weekend and glued, this time built running 25mm FMB Paris Roubaix rubber (the non-green ones, i.e. not Pros). Carbon will not suit this bike although I have seen plenty of modern steel (Pegoretti, Spooky, Sachs etc) rocking carbon hoops.

    I also have a clincher set of wheels which I use for multi-day rides when the chance of flatting a tubular and holding up others could occur, clinchers take the worry away from carrying a whole bunch of tubulars, although this has never happened I know it will, it's' just my type of luck. Handbuilt H Plus Sons Archtype shallow section alloy rims 28 hole laced 3 cross to Royce Hubs.

    Since my first wheel build a little over a year ago I am loving building wheels up. Apart from the first set requiring a minor tweak they have all remained straight and true, only time will tell when I put 1000's of kms on them if i did a good job but so far so good.

    If i had to decide between carbon or alloy it would always be carbon for the special feeling you get and the noise when on them, but only tubulars, but I would miss the shallow alloy box section tubs for their comfort and classic looks.

    Don't believe the hype that carbon wheels are more fragile, a few times mine have slammed into a pothole that would loosen ones teeth and startled me how there was no damage. However a fucked wheel is a fucked wheel and when they do break they are more costly to replace.

    Do I need em ? No.

    Do I want em ? Hell yeah.

  • @piwakawaka

    @Marcus

    @piwakawaka

    You do realise that there isn't too much in the way of aerodynamic resistance on rollers? Why? Because you don't displace air when you don't fucking move.

    Any difference in your experiment results would have been caused your relative power outputs - with a tiny bit from differing rolling resistance.

    Dont doubt they are ripper wheels though. Keep it up Freddy boy.

    I thought the aero was all about the rim spinning around as opposed to movement through the air, i.e along the road?

    Three things:

    Rotational weight... you have to keep the weight of the wheel turning, harder the more weight is at the rim - rollers or road no difference.

    Rotational drag, alll about the wheel spinning as you say - rollers or road no difference but also not massive difference wheel to wheel. Bladed/fewer spokes/discs can make a slight difference.

    Through the air drag on the road (there is probably a proper phrase for this) This is simple aerodynamics, why are TT bikes made so slippery? Massive difference wheel to wheel, flat trailing edge of a standard rim as it breaks the air at the front of each wheel causes massive drag as does the flat leading edge of the rim at the back of each wheel, especially as the air hitting it is still all messed up from trying to get round the front of the wheel. Bladed spokes can help here too.

  • Nothing spells comfort like a set of Golden tickets and fat sewups.  The roads where I ride here in Tennessee are often chipseal or gravel, and a super-compliant wheel/tire combo makes a big difference.   They also help with adherence to Rule #26...what could be more photogenic than Golden Tickets?

    Anyway, Tom Boonen is a badass, and he can take the beating that Zipp 303s administer on the pave.  I, unlike Tom, am not a badass, and need something a little softer under my ass.

    There's also the braking thing:  even with the right brake pads, stopping power with carbon hoops is non-awesome.  Since I often commute on bike no.1, switching wheels and brake pads all of the time is a non-starter for me - being able to do an emergency stop is a requirement around here if you're to survive the traffic.

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