To Carbone or Not To Carbone?
That is the question. Are carbon wheels a viable option for everyday riding? Should carbon wheels be your go-to wheels rather than your just-for-racing wheels? I don’t really race and I don’t own any carbon wheels and I wonder. Granted, every professional is and has been on carbon wheels for many years so it’s easy to think we should be on them too. Brett’s review of ENVE wheels certainly made a case for them, who dosen’t want to go faster, all the time? Frank has raved about how fast his Zipp 303s are since he first put them on his Cervelo. I hefted his Café Roubaix Haleakala climbing wheels and one dosen’t need to heft them as much as hold them down, they are unbelievably light, sub-1000 grams light.
Those wheels are too light for the rigors of the East Maui Loop pavé and potholes, or so I thought. I talked Frank out of using them and he did the Cogal on Zipp 404s and 25mm clinchers. In retrospect, with bigger tires I think he would have been OK doing the Cogal on his climbing wheels. If ultralight carbon wheels are tough enough for that ride then when are they inappropriate? Ambrosio golden ticket aluminum box section rims versus Zipp 303s, let’s see, Boonen just won Paris-Roubaix on the Zipp 404s. That is the end of the discussion. It should be the beginning of the end for three-cross box section aluminum wheels. If Zipp 303s win Paris-Roubaix then when wouldn’t one use carbon wheels?
@chiasticon-
Surprised to see so much talk of carbon wheels for a Cogal; which is, essentially, not much different than a club run. I understand Frank wanting to run them for his climb up Haleakala, since he was going for a PR up a huge friggin’ volcano and I’m sure they certainly helped. But as an every day wheel for a club/social/training ride? At least within the circles I ride in, that’s a good reason to get laughed off the ride (comments would especially come from the local racers). It’s like saying “I can’t keep up with you guys without these wheels!” Or at least that’s how people generally take it.
…but how common is it among Velominati to use carbon wheels on an everyday basis?
On the Cogal ride, out of seven riders there were two people on carbon wheels. On our Sunday club ride there is maybe one user. I see a lot of bikes on the site with drool-worthy carbon wheels. Are aluminum rims old school? Are we being played here or are we all just a little behind the times or are we saving our money for better bike investments?
Strong, light, cheap. Pick two – I’m going to attribute this to Keith Bontrager as it was etched on my Bontrager’s stem cap. I’d like to add a fourth adjective, aerodynamic, but my tiny brain can’t compute how picking two or three might work so cleverly.
Strong
There are not many high end frames made from aluminum anymore. Could the same case be made for wheels? The aluminum box rim may be light but it is not strong unless you lace a lot of crossed spokes on it. I have some 80s Campagnolo Vento deep wheels, aero maybe, not light and the ride is a bit harsh. An unlaced carbon rim may not be lighter than a light weight aluminum rim but it is much stronger.
Light
I’m afraid carbon is going to win here. While a case could have been made for the Ambrosio golden ticket being strong, it is not light. There are some semi-aero aluminum wheels out there that are light but they make me nervous with their low weight limit.
Cheap
Boing! There it is. Strong and cheap is aluminum’s territory. One pays $1100US more for Easton’s Carbon EC90 SLX wheels than the aluminum EA 90 SLX wheelset. 200 grams is the only difference between the two models. If that was the end of the comparisons I wouldn’t lose any sleep over my lack of carbone wheels but there is still one other factor.
Aerodynamic
Carbon wins this easily. The carbon can be a fairing or integral to the wheel’s strength but carbon’s moldability is the future. Formula 1 cars are no longer made of aluminum. Boonen must have saved significant energy on the long paved run-in to the pavé sectors using his Zipps, maybe enough energy to help burn everyone off his wheel later on. @Tommy Tubulare’s Cervelo with Campagnolo Bora deep carbon wheels makes my heart skip a beat. Carbon wheels look badass.
Conclusion
Once again I have no informed opinion having never ridden carbon wheels. Would I love to see my bike looking extremely pro with some deep section carbon wheels? Yes. Would it be very bad to be shelled out the back end of a group ride while riding said wheels? Yes, it would be very bad.
Should my wheels be worth more than the rest of the bike? Who cares. Let’s address @chiasticon’s question, who’s riding carbon and when?
[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/j.andrews3@comcast.net/carbone wheels/”/]
Interesting topic… As I live in Netherlands, mudguard is a must for me, as it is alloy clinchers…
You forget a couple points: carbon brakes really bad, and, the clincher carbon rims break in long braking periods, and are as heavy or even heavier than aluminium clincher. Carbon is good only with tubulars, and still, brake performance is very bad.
I¡d suggest to take a look at Kimlin alloy rims, they are truly light and cheap, and they brake really well in both clincher or tubular. In bikehubstore.com you can see some of their range.
If box section alu tubulars are wrong, I don’t want to be right.
You read my mind, just before clicking on the V I was on E Bay looking at carbon wheels…38mm or 50mm? alu braking surface or all carbone? Expensive or ridiculous? Still none the wiser.
Great question on which I’m currently pondering. If clincher, no question it’s aluminum for me. My Hed C2s work just fine. Tubular is the one that gets me. I built up the quintessential Nemesis on silver Campagnolo hubs (Chorus) and love the ride. Thought about a set of Hed C2 tubulars, but they’re not calling to me.
There is something that’s calling me to try carbon. I’m thinking of building up some asian rims on inexpensive hubs — which I can do at a reasonable cost. Rims would be from one of the more reputable sources vs no-name via ebay, but still boatloads cheaper than Zipps/Enves/Bontragers — I know those are amazing but just can’t rationalize the cost differential (Oh, and Boras — drool, but same story).
For me the question is 38 vs 50mm depth, and 23 vs the just-being-released 24/25mm u-shaped rims…. I wish someone had a quality but reasonably priced 42-45mm carbon rim as I think those aesthetics (ala Tommeke’s 303s) would be perfect with my Hampsten ti….
I use the Bontrager Aeolus 5.0’s as everyday wheels and race wheels except in the winter, when shallower aluminum wheels go on.
Although, lately, I have been lusting after a set of Golden Tickets or the clincher alternative H+Son TB14s.
@teleguy57
You might want to take a look at Corsa Concepts. I only recently found out about these guys. They’re not cheap, but still not Zipp/Enve prices. A lot of the local cross racers ran them this year and I didn’t see any failures.
@MaLóL
I didn’t mention overheating on steep descents either. Yet, if the braking is so bad why do pros always use them? Something must out-weigh the bad braking. Maybe pros don’t brake. And yes, it does seem like tubulars are the way to go with carbon wheels.
i love the way carbon and tubulars ride. i rode my hed stinger 6’s in sun, mud and pouring rain. loved every moment of it. conversely, i love the way aluminum looks, laced up with some shiny bits and ready to show it’s not dead. if it came to pure aesthetics, i’d put 32 hole classics on every bike out there. it’s just so hard to go wrong with that combo. but as you pointed out @gianni, carbon has some amazing properties, and with the prices coming down for those that dont get sponsor discounts, they no longer need to be thought of as sunday best.
and really, how can you look at this, and not go searching for a suitable hub??
and @gianni, hate to tell you but i hate the 7 star boras. nothing about that wheelset calls to me or makes me wiggle
Oh, Merckx, another article that will easily run into the hundreds of comments. Lots to talk about here. And of course, we will.
The only more contorversial topic is the recurrent: gruppo, group-san or bro-set?
I am simply too fat to run carbone wheels. And I’m too cheap.
@Gianni
The 3 things that outweigh their concerns would be:
1. A sponsor paying a lot of money to have their wheels on TV and in photos.
2. A mechainc to set the brakes up every morning, including expensive new pads (and possible new wheels!).
3. They will be tubulars, not the clinchers that normal people will generally buy.
Totally agree with @MaLóL that carbon suits tubular wheel design but not clincher. To make a clincher cross-section strong enough means the weight is similar to alloy. And alloy has much better heat dissipation properties.
I think carbon clinchers fall into the same area as road disc brakes – not better, not needed, but new. So the industry pushes them and leading-edge punters buy them.
Having always raced, I’m of the mindset that (and Merckx help me if I’m not having deja vu here) you train heavy, race light.
Now that’s not to say that you have to race to do this. But there’s something about suffering all winter on the steel bike with 32 spoke aluminum hoops, then on the day you’re going on that tough club run, or a 210K Cogal, busting out the 1100gm carbon tubs. And the way they resonate sound when riding can be (to quote @urbanwhitetrash) “hypnotic”. If I rode mine everyday they’d lose their mysteriousness.
And yes, I have been know to giggle at folk, or outright give them shit, for riding carbon tubs on group training rides. So there.
Ready to race.
Hi there, these are my bombproof favorites!
Rims: Zipp 303, cross version, 24 spokes front and rear
Tires: Vittoria Pave EVO CG Tire, tubular, 24mm
Pads: SwissStop, Yellow King (carbon specific)
The cross version of the 303 are super durable and the increased weight is so small that it is irrelevant and the Pave’s are a perfect match, tough and durable. With the SwissStops the braking is excellent even on long high speed descents.
My favorite local roads are quite bad, potholes and rough asphalt but this combo makes for smooth sailing.
And they look good to J
@roger
Silver hubs, silver spokes.
For group rides, climbing days, and fondos, Durace Ace C24 Carbon/Alumimum wheels. Light, strong, plush, they spin forever and offer great braking with the alu brake track. And perfectly low key. Well, aside from the white Durace branding.
If I had more disposable income, I’d get a pair of the C35s for all the same reasons as above + the aero benefit.
For winter and plain ol’ training: bombproof Fulcrum 5 aluminum.
@Nate
Brass nipples.
@Nate
+1 with nipple lube. But whilst I love my Golden Tickets and their Vittoria Pave’s as the perfect winter wheel, if I could afford a set of deep section carbon tubular rims laced onto Royce or Chris King hubs I would ride them whenever the weather wasn’t classified as Rule #9 (Cold, Wet or Windy).
Surely, it’s one of the fundamental principles of this site, if it looks pro* then it’s got to be right.
*looking pro should not be confused with doing what the pros do such as sporting an EPMS.
Learned the hard way- inexpensive carbon tubbies can be found (a la Planet X, others). The risk- recessed spoke design turning something awesome into painful. Prepare to reglue to true. 2cx races and there I was. So not worth it to me who doesn’t have time, skill, and patience for remove, reglue, repeat. So the expense may be worth it for fancier ones. I found corsa concept alloy set at 1400gms w white ind hubs for a bit more than what I paid for those carbon tubbies. Nary a problem, and they went with the wider rim profile for cx a la firecrest…
People have been convinced by marketing that weight and spoke count are all that matters.
This is completely wrong.
If you run 3-cross spokes instead of radial, you massively improve your stiffness. And the weight difference for a few mm of spoke is negligible.
Same with spoke count. Running 24 spokes instead of 32 saves you only about 50 grams. If you don’t clip your fingernails before every ride, you’re probably riding with 50 g more than necessary already.
My 28 spoke, 2 cross wheels (aluminum Velocity rims) kicked the bucket after 14 months of cyclocross. I just built a new set with HED Belgium tubular rims, 32 spoke, 3 cross. I can already tell they are much stiffer and more durable. And at about 1,600 g that’s light enough.
The other is engagement: the number of times per revolution that your freewheel connects when you start pedaling. For some reason, marketing (to road riders) omits this important spec.
So there are many questions more important than carbon or clincher.
@G’rilla
Maybe this is a huge mistake, but I selected lower count spoke wheels because I think they look better. I’m a Fat Bastard, and have had little trouble with my Neuvation R28 Aeros (which have now been converted to toobless.) 16 front, 20 rear.
Maybe the most important reason Boonen chose the Zipps is the bearings/hubs the specs are pretty impressive. I’ve read that lots of pro teams get their bearings from Zipp as they’re the smoothest roundest bearings on the planet.
I won’t bother linking to their site and yes I scooped a set of 101s in a replacement deal from Sram.
Looking to acquire a truing stand, dishing tool, and hardware, then off I’ll go to build low(low)-profile 36 and 32 hole tubular wheels. Beginning with a new Athena 36h front hub from Germany (Ebay) won for 11.00 USD and 18.00 USD shipping. Still have an extra pair of Campagnolo Victory Strada rims, but want to begin with a Lambda Strada, Mavic GP4, NISI etc. Once that the wheel building is looking good, then I’ve kept a 2006 Record 36h front hub that needs a matching rear to build up. Still in love with these classic rims and hubs. And building is a plus.
I’m probably a bad Velominati but I just have 1 bike and 1 set of wheels – cue deep gasp from audience and much muttering and shaking of heads. It’s a great bike with a nice set of wheels, Ksyrium SL’s. they are light, strong but not aero. But 25,000 k’s in I’ve never had to true them but will put in new bearings next service. Probably get a set of Carbone tubs for crits, local guy builds nice ones for about $800, I can’t bring myself to spend $xxxxx on wheels I would use occasionally, must be my Scottish heritage.
@scaler911
Lubed.
Re. the big guys winning spring classic on Zipps, Cervelos etc. Please don’t believe that what the pros ride, in spring classics, is what you can buy a the lbs. Regarding wheels and frames bashing over the nasty roads. My 51cm 2011 R3 can’t even take a 25mm tire – the stays and the forks suffer some serious tire rub. Never mind a 28mm tire we see them run. For years they would say they were stoke frames only to have it slip out that the guys were on “Mud Frames”. Wider forks and a very different frame! I can only imagine how dissimilar those Zipps are to what we can get at the lbs.
I have not ridden a full carbon wheelset, but am very close to buying some – think the Zipp 404s or Enves are very soon to enter my life.
Like others, cannot see the point of carbon clinchers. They seem like a dirty little compromise – and lend themselves to being ridden by arseholes who don’t race their bikes but like being seen as fast or cool in their regular bunch. “I dont want to fuck about with tubbies on my regular rides but i want to have carbon wheels”. I have the feeling that most alu/carbon clinchers are very rarely called upon to provide aerodynamic benefit because they are invariably ridden by cunts hiding in big bunches going slow. Those are the same sort of areseholes that Gunny Hartman said wouldn’t even have the common courtesy to provide a reacharound…
Better off going full carbon tubs for racing and alu clinchers for training I say. My current LOOK came with the lesser version of the Cosmic Carbones – which are alu rims with a carbon fairing sitting on top (the horror) – adding weight and some aerodynamic benefit, apparently. They are heavy, ride like shit and sat unloved at home in their wheel bags until they became training wheels for my TT bike – and yes, i feel dirty riding them. But to be fair, they do look relatively cool until you notice the alu braking surface.
My alu clinchers (for Campy and Shimano bikes respectively) are in the form of Shamals and Fulcrum Zeros (basically the same wheels with different stickers). They are veeery nice and light. I have no way of proving/knowing this, but it seems like the USB hubs on these wheels are something special – they roll beautifully and invariably win our hugely scientific bike rolling comps (when you all roll down a hill, no pedalling and see who gets the furtherest).
@Nate
Strong work my friend, strong work!
I just upgraded my wheelset to Ksyrium SuperLights & thus won’t be in the wheelset market for a long time. I’d kind of like to try tubular and I’d kind of like to try carbon, but I’m not really sure I’ll ever go that route. Maybe, but I see my cycling time becoming increasingly squeezed in the next few years and both of these options seem like the upside doesn’t outweigh the time/possible frustration factor. Who knows though, a mid-life Carbone Crisis is always looming…
I second the carbon clincher vibe. Just a gimmick for Freds.
Tubs, be they crabon or alu should be busted out for special rides: races, epic climbs, etc. I do like the notion of train heavy, race light. I try to compromise a little by running decently light clincher tires most of the time. I ride in mountains several times a week and it’s nice to be a little quicker on a climb. My heavy wheels keep things in check.
I should add: “light clincher” is relative. I was rocking some wire bead gatorskins this winter because I got a deal… but 300 grams for 25s is nuts. Glad to be on a more supple GP (not to mention 70g lighter a tire).
Dura Ace C24 CL shod with 25’s for Gran Fondo and other long rides – sub 1400 gr carbon/aluminum composites. I have a set of Bontrager RXL’s that I just can’t kill that I use for rough training rides and bad weather.
I say embrace your inner Carbone!
I have a set of ENVE 6.7 tubulars which are absolutely amazing. They are more or less my everyday wheels during the summer and nice weather. I use alloy clinchers during the winter and wet weather to avoid premature wear of the ENVE’s brake track. With such an investment, you want them to last as long as possible.
Carbone or go home!
Interesting tidbit about Dura Ace carbon rims (and maybe others).
They use the same amount of carbon for the shallow, mid, and deep section version of their rims. It’s thicker in the C24 and thinner in the C50.
@roger
damn you roger! Hate is a strong word. But that’s OK, it might be some weird genetic campy thing with me but the Enve all black wheels give me considerable tumescence too. Daddy want.
Those red rims are fantastic. Yeah, I’d have to agree about the stainless spokes and silver hubs. Most bitchin’.
@Marcus
Are you lookin’ at me? Because I don’t see anyone else you might be lookin’ at.
Yeah, carbone clinchers do seem like a bad compromise. And once again you deserve some medal for working the term “reacharound” into a discussion of carbon wheels.
I remember fondling a set of Bontrager deep carbon wheels and realizing it was all fairing covering a regular wheel and being deeply offended. Get the Enve wheels. You will command the utmost respect on the road.
Fred the arsehole cunt here!!
I do however have Easton SLX90s in Alu @ 1235gms for climbing which I also rate highly, and Most Wildcats @1850gms for training, I try and ride the training wheels but somehow the race wheels spend quite a bit of time on No.1, Train heavy race Light is good advice.
Back in the day it was all tubs all the time but for training it was shot rims and cut up race tires or tank like cheap Czech Barums. On race day the good and light wheels made the bike feel like a throughbred.
Now it’s clinchers and alu and only one set so I never get that feeling. since i not longer race i can see how one pair of carbons with tubs would put one in that place place permanently and since they now seem to be bullit proof why not? It seems I will have to forgo a new car to make this happen…
@EricW
@EricW can you post some shots of this lady in the bikes section? i wish i went with traditional rather than sloping..
@piwakawaka
You do realise that there isn’t too much in the way of aerodynamic resistance on rollers? Why? Because you don’t displace air when you don’t fucking move.
Any difference in your experiment results would have been caused your relative power outputs – with a tiny bit from differing rolling resistance.
Dont doubt they are ripper wheels though. Keep it up Freddy boy.
@Velosophe
That’s what I’m talkin’ about! Go carbone or go home. I knew someone out there was using their beautiful deep carbone wheels for every day, nice weather riding. Nice.
@Sluggo
Sluggo! A few of us were surprised (and disappointed) when we started to outfit our bikes with >23mm tires for the 2012 Keepers Tour. Many frames just aren’t designed for it. I could get 27mm tires on my bike but if it was muddy I would have been doomed. No extra clearance at all. Regarding wheels, I don’t know what the pros would get, less bearings? The tires are special enough though Frank managed to buy some.
@piwakawaka
Another Fred her.
Fuck yuz all. I have Carbon Clinchers and I love em. I race on em, I train on em, I * on em.
I’ll put the alu clinchers back on when the winter rains come, but in the mean time, havving a beautiful set of wheels on the bike makes me look that much more forward to getting on it.
You all can have your box section aluminium tubbies based on your misplaced sentimentality. Don’t get me wrong, I raced on exactly that 20 years ago, and thought they were awesome (still do.They were). I however live in 2013 now and am in the fortunate position to ride on good gear.
Carbon wheels hold no allure for me at this time. I will stay with aluminum box rims for the time being. Heck, I sometimes miss the old down tube friction shifters ala Campagnolo, but that’s just me. I am currently looking into acquiring a high quality steel frame. It’s still the frame material of reference.
@gregorio
My brotha from anotha motha!
@mouse
Good man. I agree that the old tubbies and box section mavic gp4 aluminum rims were pretty exciting in 1980. But really. Let’s move forward. I just saw some ebay Enve 3.4 carbone clinchers with the mango chris king hubs. humuna humuna! Luckily they were shimano so I could not get in too much of a frenzy.
@Gianni
They’re still too good to leave behind. And they’re awesome!
How do I get into this conversation without looking like I am a self serving marketing COTHO?
Carbon and Alloy, not Carbon vs. Alloy. I sell and build both for a reason. Alloy is significantly less expensive, my Cafe Roubaix alloy builds (KinLin) are about half the price as the carbon. G’Rilla hits the issue on the head. Spokes and spoke count and cross patterns are way more important to a wheel’s dynamics. They are the soul of the wheel set. While I build to lower spoke counts for custom jobs, my regular wheel offerings are 3x where ever I can do it. And 28 spokes on the rear wheel is my standard for road. In studio, I carry all the brands I like – Ambrosio, Enve, stock Zipp wheels, Campagnolo (& Fulcrum). I can get Reynolds, but why would I? Same goes for Mavic.
Rim depth is an environment/wind thing. I get tossed around on my 1900g Cosmic Elites, just as easily as on my own carbon 38s. I like to go lower (20-24mm) for the windy days and deeper if I am heading into the wind. For CX, I don’t need the deep rims as it is dryer than a popcorn fart where I live and race, but in the PNW, deeper=gooder. Width is marketing hoohaa to get back R&D money. But I can make great 23 width wheels for those that want ’em!
PS–Ride carbon, mine are awesome. If not, my alloy rocks the body too! Go Café Roubaix!
@mouse Have I got a carbon clincher for YOU!
I just bought a new set (2005’s but never used) of Zipp 303 on Craigslist. Dirt cheap. Cheaper than a decent set of aluminum wheels. It’s my first foray into carbon. Figured I’d try them out this season. All season. Racing or not. If I break them I break them. If these 8 year old carbon Zipps can last a season then they pass any test I have. They’re going on a steel frame which is a little wacky. Whatever. Deal with it.
Circumstances dictating the ride!!
Living in Dubai I dont even have a set of steel rims. Why? Well not many people do. The roads are great, no pot holes or cobble stones, and it’s flat, very flat. So my local circumstances kind of dictate what I use, maybe sad, yes, but then it appears this is the case for most of us, to some extent or other.
At the end of the day, surely you ride what feels good to you, and helps you to enjoy your riding to the fullest, and if your are worried about being accused of using them to aid your speed, do more work on the front!