Categories: Look ProTechnology

To Carbone or Not To Carbone?

photo by bikesoup.cc

That is the question. Are carbon wheels a viable option for everyday riding? Should carbon wheels be your go-to wheels rather than your just-for-racing wheels? I don’t really race and I don’t own any carbon wheels and I wonder. Granted, every professional is and has been on carbon wheels for many years so it’s easy to think we should be on them too. Brett’s review of ENVE wheels certainly made a case for them, who dosen’t want to go faster, all the time? Frank has raved about how fast his Zipp 303s are since he first put them on his Cervelo. I hefted his Café Roubaix Haleakala climbing wheels and one dosen’t need to heft them as much as hold them down, they are unbelievably light, sub-1000 grams light.

Those wheels are too light for the rigors of the East Maui Loop pavé and potholes, or so I thought. I talked Frank out of using them and he did the Cogal on Zipp 404s and 25mm clinchers. In retrospect, with bigger tires I think he would have been OK doing the Cogal on his climbing wheels. If ultralight carbon wheels are tough enough for that ride then when are they inappropriateAmbrosio golden ticket aluminum box section rims versus Zipp 303s, let’s see, Boonen just won Paris-Roubaix on the Zipp 404s. That is the end of the discussion. It should be the beginning of the end for three-cross box section aluminum wheels. If Zipp 303s win Paris-Roubaix then when wouldn’t one use carbon wheels?

@chiasticon-

Surprised to see so much talk of carbon wheels for a Cogal; which is, essentially, not much different than a club run. I understand Frank wanting to run them for his climb up Haleakala, since he was going for a PR up a huge friggin’ volcano and I’m sure they certainly helped. But as an every day wheel for a club/social/training ride? At least within the circles I ride in, that’s a good reason to get laughed off the ride (comments would especially come from the local racers). It’s like saying “I can’t keep up with you guys without these wheels!” Or at least that’s how people generally take it.

…but how common is it among Velominati to use carbon wheels on an everyday basis?

On the Cogal ride, out of seven riders there were two people on carbon wheels. On our Sunday club ride there is maybe one user. I see a lot of bikes on the site with drool-worthy carbon wheels. Are aluminum rims old school? Are we being played here or are we all just a little behind the times or are we saving our money for better bike investments? 

Strong, light, cheap. Pick two – I’m going to attribute this to Keith Bontrager as it was etched on my Bontrager’s stem cap. I’d like to add a fourth adjective, aerodynamic, but my tiny brain can’t compute how picking two or three might work so cleverly.

Strong

There are not many high end frames made from aluminum anymore. Could the same case be made for wheels? The aluminum box rim may be light but it is not strong unless you lace a lot of crossed spokes on it. I have some 80s Campagnolo Vento deep wheels, aero maybe, not light and the ride is a bit harsh. An unlaced carbon rim may not be lighter than a light weight aluminum rim but it is much stronger.

Light

I’m afraid carbon is going to win here. While a case could have been made for the Ambrosio golden ticket being strong, it is not light. There are some semi-aero aluminum wheels out there that are light but they make me nervous with their low weight limit.

Cheap

Boing! There it is. Strong and cheap is aluminum’s territory. One pays $1100US more for Easton’s Carbon EC90 SLX wheels than the aluminum EA 90 SLX wheelset. 200 grams is the only difference between the two models. If that was the end of the comparisons I wouldn’t lose any sleep over my lack of carbone wheels but there is still one other factor.

Aerodynamic

Carbon wins this easily. The carbon can be a fairing or integral to the wheel’s strength but carbon’s moldability is the future. Formula 1 cars are no longer made of aluminum. Boonen must have saved significant energy on the long paved run-in to the pavé sectors using his Zipps, maybe enough energy to help burn everyone off his wheel later on. @Tommy Tubulare’s Cervelo with Campagnolo Bora deep carbon wheels makes my heart skip a beat. Carbon wheels look badass. 

Conclusion

Once again I have no informed opinion having never ridden carbon wheels. Would I love to see my bike looking extremely pro with some deep section carbon wheels? Yes. Would it be very bad to be shelled out the back end of a group ride while riding said wheels? Yes, it would be very bad.

Should my wheels be worth more than the rest of the bike? Who cares. Let’s address @chiasticon’s question, who’s riding carbon and when?

[dmalbum path=”/velominati.com/content/Photo Galleries/j.andrews3@comcast.net/carbone wheels/”/]

 

 

Gianni

Gianni has left the building.

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  • @frank

    ... this reasoning about getting laughed out of the group is one of those things where Roadies genuinely deserve the reputation for being snobby douchebags...

    ...Ride what you got, ride what you want...

    Totally agree. I don't ride with my club as often as I should, getting away for a ride on Sunday morning is probably harder than skiving off work for a ride, but I really couldn't give a toss what they might have to say about my bike or kit. The group ride is such a monstrous fuck up of rule infractions that a pithy retort could be found for any comment.

    I'll try to be as rule compliant as possible and if that causes someone else see the light and ditch the EPMS or mirror then great but I'm not going to have a go at anyone for rule infractions (except for see through bibs) or not running the latest gear. I've spent too much time suffering trying to hold the wheel of my sensei who's training bit and kit is far from pro looking.  

  • cheers for the quote/inspiration in the article.  good write up and good conversation all around.  some interesting points being made.

    @frank despite my comment, i'm not 100% in agreement with the idea of never using carbon wheels on group/club rides or condoning the behavior i mentioned.  you're right; it's your bike to ride and your ride to enjoy, so do so.  i was simply saying "hey, here's this trend...what's everyone think?"  and yeah, roadies can be snobby douchebags (i know some that even created something like 100 rules of things you can/cannot do regarding your bike!).  but in general, it's all in good fun of busting someone's balls.

    personally, i agree with the sentiment that i don't see much to be gained from carbon clinchers.  as far as weight goes, you can get 1200 gram clinchers in alu or carbon, but that's about the limit.  aerodynamics can be gained from carbon clinchers, sure; but i don't see situations where that's useful to the non-racer (other than just looking awesome).  and if you are racing, you might as well get tubbies.

  • Nemesis (aka Golden Tickets)/Sapim spokes/Record hubs = best all around wheels. Full stop

  • @Deakus

    @frank

    I've got to run and I'm sure lots of people have said lots of smart things which I hope to catch up on later this week, but in response to @chiasticon's remark in the post -

    Maybe its because once I've put an idea through my own brain's value metrix, I don't feel compelled to put it through someone else's, but this reasoning about getting laughed out of the group is one of those things where Roadies genuinely deserve the reputation for being snobby douchebags.

    Ride what you got, ride what you want - why is there some arbitrary wheel that deserves to be ridden on any given day? I ride for pleasure - even when I race - and I conduct myself as such. I'll ride the wheels that are fun on the day whether that's on box clinchers, box tubs, deep dish clinchers, or deep dish tubs and that should be that. N+1 applies to wheels as well, by the way.

    On the other hand, I'd suggest that if money is an issue and they can only own one set of wheels that it should be a racing wheel, not a training wheel, especially if they intend on racing.

    Riding on a non race day on anything that is Carbone is a sin! To have such light spinny stuff under you on a training ride is heresy and should not be entertained, it means you are no longer fighting a gorilla but something more akin to a Capuchin or Marmoset and this is cheating! The heavier, more resistant wheels and tyres you run, the harder you are training! Forget Rule #9 being about riding in bad weather...it should be about the desire to ride cast iron squares!!

    I say this not out of wisdom, technical knowledge, or reasoned decision but simply because I cannot afford a pair of Carbones and therefore they are to be ignored or denegrated at every opportunity.

    As soon as I am light enough and rich enough to get some they will obviously become worthing riding at every available opportunity.....cue semi colon, close brackets!

    Alas, this appears to be at the core of this reasoning across the board.

  • @The Oracle

    I'm a LOOOOONNNG way from the point where the weight/aerodynamic advantages of carbon wheels would make any difference whatsoever, so I've always been in the cheap and strong camp.

    Funnily enough, I think the justification can be made all the more that the longer you are from being able to take advantage of the technology, the more impact it will have on your performance. If the performance isn't coming from your body, the least you can do is wring it from your equipment.

    Unfortunately for everyone, this is also the reasoning that leads to doping.

  • @frank

    I've got to run and I'm sure lots of people have said lots of smart things which I hope to catch up on later this week, but in response to @chiasticon's remark in the post -

    Maybe its because once I've put an idea through my own brain's value metrix, I don't feel compelled to put it through someone else's, but this reasoning about getting laughed out of the group is one of those things where Roadies genuinely deserve the reputation for being snobby douchebags.

    Ride what you got, ride what you want - why is there some arbitrary wheel that deserves to be ridden on any given day? I ride for pleasure - even when I race - and I conduct myself as such. I'll ride the wheels that are fun on the day whether that's on box clinchers, box tubs, deep dish clinchers, or deep dish tubs and that should be that. N+1 applies to wheels as well, by the way.

    On the other hand, I'd suggest that if money is an issue and they can only own one set of wheels that it should be a racing wheel, not a training wheel, especially if they intend on racing.

    So...what I'm hearing is that a wide selection of equipment (*cough* Evelyn Stevens *cough*) can lead to more ejoyment on the bike, and when money issues (*cough* Evelyn Stevens *cough*) arise, you might have to change to a non-optimal training set up (*cough* Evelyn Stevens *cough*) so as to be competitive on race day?

    Yes, I'm being a snobby douchebag. And I'd get away with it if it wasn't for you meedling kids. And stay off my lawn!

  • @scaler911

    Having always raced, I'm of the mindset that (and Merckx help me if I'm not having deja vu here) you train heavy, race light

     

    exactly, this was how I was taught as well, great point!

  • so, there have been a ga-gillion good points, and what can I say?  Probably just a little, but its a great article that brings us fill tilt boogie back to the pivotal arguement...carbon vs alu wheelsets, daily use vs race day, and yes, the cosmos and karma will sway depending on what we velomanti render as opinion

    I have both, carbon zipp tubers, mavic open pro clincher, ksyrium clinchers, mavic cosmos clinchers.

    note: most are clinchers, one set of carbons that are tubular

    My experience is that by riding the heavier utility wheelset daily and training on them is good in that they are worry free for miles and miles.  I have flattened out on tubulars on the road, and its not as fun riding back home 'hoping' all goes well with the lone spare tubular you just slap on the rim with a little pressure to slide by.  However, the clincher is easy greasy and worry free. 

    There is however something to note, about donning the girl for the prom, whether that is race day, Fondo day, club 'fast' day or whatever, there is something to be said about taking the girls clinchers off and donning the race set.  There is something about the routine of prep that is not only exciting, but it sets the mindset around 'things faster'.   There is something said about instantly 'buying' 4km/hr speed in one sitting.  Perhaps also, it is because I am a lazyass, and know if I were to run this premo-carbon daily, I would relax my training because after all...it IS faster, being comfortable and complacent with the averages I average on the clinchers....and then really take an ass-whacking come race day.  So, I train heavy, race with the zipps.

    But let me also add this, if on a training/club ride...you show up with carbon hoops of ANY kind, they are like yellow or silver shoes, dammit, you better be fast and ready to drill it to every single stop sign and you better deliver the goods!  Nothings worse IMHO than a fat ass showing up with eye candy...just because...its eye candy

    Carbon-clinchers, more are using them, and thats fine, but for reasons above, i personally see them lulling me into a complacent sleep during training days, running times that are fictitiously slower than I should be running, making things easier than they seem, and allowing the man with the hammer to visit me hard and often come race day.   The advantage I see is race day, having a blow out, and just slap a tube in her and go, maybe not even losing a lap

    G'rilla also makes some very good notes about lace up and count, I'll just add, for my rebuilds and open pro's, I always use BRASS nipples, and only brass.  b-o-m-b-p-r-o-o-f

    & someone said something about the 7850 C-24's, thanks, i will have to get these for sure as i have envied these since their arrival

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Gianni

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