And the 39 Was Clean as a Whistle
I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn’t it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft… As for me, give me a fixed gear!
— Henri Desgrange
I like to think that any time a rider running a compact punctures, Henri’s spirit is brought just that little bit closer to finding peace; I can only imagine what he might have said about the advent of these sorts of chainsets, let alone the wide-range cassettes we see in wide use today.
The thing that bothers me most about wide-range cassettes is the gaps between the gears. Growing up riding in Minnesota, I trained on a 12-23 and raced on an 12-21 because they were basically a straight block until you got to the lowest gears. Going to the mountains I would reluctantly use a 12-27 but I had to stop myself looking at the back wheel too much because I hated the sight of that 27t dinner plate. I’ve gotten used to what my bikes look like with the 12-25 I’m training on these days, but there are definitely times when I simply can’t find the right gear ratio for the terrain.
Growing up, I was considered a spinner for riding at 80-90 rpm; the thinking at the time was that mashing big gears at low cadences was more efficient. We are greatly influenced by what the Pros are doing, and the famous Cyclists at the time like Hinault and LeMond rode at 60 rpm, so that’s what we punters did, too. Today, I’m still riding at the same cadence, but now people consider me to be a bit of a gear pusher in our modern 100+ rpm climate. I like to flatter myself that the size of my climbing gear intimidates the spinners I ride with; my favorite question to ask them is why they are riding in the little ring already. I usually already know the answer (they are sissies) but I like to ask anyway because I enjoy their slightly bewildered expression before looking at my chainset and realizing that I’m still in the 53. I always give them that special look that makes them wonder whether or not I have noticed that the climb is steep already.
Before spinning high cadences became popular and, shortly after, the abominable 11-28 block became the mainstream choice in gearing, climbers would seek to intimidate one another by how tight they could keep their gearing and how few teeth they needed to use to get over a climb. Climbers like Manuel Fuentes would make sure to always ride in a slightly bigger gear than the rest of the group as a show of defiance to the ferocity of the gradient. In The Rider, Tim Krabbé recounts his suffering on the climbs of the Tour de Mont Aigoual in the South of France. His lowest gear was a 19, one which he considered his “bail out” gear. He was confident he could win the race, and throughout he imagines the onlookers admiring the fact that his 19 never saw the chain, “And his 19 was clean as a whistle,” he imagined them saying.
I personally can’t imagine climbing anything steeper than an overpass in a 19, but I do like to challenge myself to stay off my 39 and ride an entire training route in the 53. And his 39 was clean as a whistle.
But I like my knees.
@Brian Kelly
Amen…
When I raced, I ran 53/39 up front with 12-21 in the back. This was my “do everything” gearing, even riding in the mountains. When I got back on my bike (the same one I used to race) after a 15+ year hiatus, I changed the rear to 12-23. But older legs are not the same as younger legs, and 39×23 was definitely at the limit going up some hills. So I’m now thankful for my 50/36 up front (yes, I know this is weird combo) with 11-28 in back. I still tend to push bigger gears when I climb, but I’m glad to have smaller gears to ride in.
Don’t look at my 11-32. :(
This. You and I are from the same school of climbing. I remember mentoring one of the young guns who joined our club/team. He was a high cadence spinner before it became fashionable. He wondered why he was getting dropped on the climbs. Taught him how to ride big gears. Once he learned, I spent a lot of time in his wake (he was/is also 11 years younger than me).
There’s a sweet spot for higher cadence spinning on climbs. You have to be able to do it and still produce power. And you have to be able to do it and be able to drop to a bigger gear and still produce power. For whatever reason (old age?) I just can’t spin that fast and produce power. As a result, I actually fatigue sooner if I try. I can spin if I’m trying to climb at an easy/moderate pace, but not if I’m trying to go fast.
I like seeing people ahead of me on a climb who are spinning at a high cadence. More times than not, it means they’ve topped out in terms of both leg speed and bike speed. Assuming I’m not tapped out, it means I know I can catch them and pass them.
What I call “power climbing” seems to be a lost art.
i became a “mid-compact” convert this year. after training last year with a standard crankset and a 11-25 cassette, then trying out a true compact later in the season, i found that with the area i live in, the best compromise is the midcompact. i get to stay in the big ring longer (without cross chaining) but when it gets really steep, a 36t really makes a difference.
and what this guys say’s, super true: @Brian Kelly
I run a 53/39 with an 11-28. It depends on the length of my day. Short rides? Sure I’ll hammer it out in the big ring. Long day? Be smart about not blowing up until the back half. If I feel good then, I’ll punch it.
If I’m going to the trouble of complexity and weight to carry it with me I’m damn sure going to use it.
Mr 60% Riis had the mechanics mess with his gearing so he could stay in the big ring while climbing and intimidate Big Mig et al. in the Tour. Somehow I bet it was the 60% ex-domestique that intimidated them more than staying in the big chainring.
I switched to a compact when climbing a certain very steep ramp; realizing something was going to break, either the bike or my knees were going to go to failure. I don’t know how they climbed the alps in the old days. Tough bastards.
About to return to 52/42 with a 12-21 for most routes. Mountains { May 14 } require a 12-26 or 14-29 { gravel mountains }, but 52/42 is the only constant that allows me to calculate the Coefficient of Difficulty.
The other thing we sometimes did was put a 42 on in place of a 39. If guys who were riding 39s and running out of gearing/speed saw you were running a 42 (yes, you can tell the difference) and still had gears to use, they were toast.
BTW, Merckx passing Fuentes on a climb in the ’73 Giro in “Stars and Water Carriers.” The very definition of power climbing in a bigger gear. Go to ~28min 50sec in.
@Frank – While it is hard to tell through the cigarette smoke of your directeur sportiff, the videos of your your Haleakala climbs make it look like you have a compact on there. Any comment?
@chuckp
Two summers ago I mounted 54/44 { three months } and it felt like a cannon recoil going onto the 54. It was fun — not entirely natural.
@BacklashJack
Just a Flemish Compact, my friend. Just a Flemish one.
But I do confess to running the shit out of the 39. It was very, very dirty.
@Pete
Or, big ring on long fasting rides to make the visit from the Man with the Hammer all the more savage.
@Brian Kelly
@Marco
Oh pish posh.
@chuckp
I’m surprised you like the 50T. I run 50/38 on my graveur but I find it very hard to find suitable ratios at medium speeds, especially closer to the low side of the cassette and I find myself crossing constantly.
@frank
Do we have a name yet for the newfangled and popular 52/36?
@BacklashJack
I believe it’s referred to as “faux pro”.
@frank
For whatever reason, 50/36 up front and 11-28 in the back seems to work well for me. My “logic” in choosing such a “weird” set up is that (having come from 53/39 in front) I could still push bigger gears in the small ring but have enough small gears for climbing and I could stay in the big ring longer on climbs (I’m not worried about spinning out a 50×11). I have a smaller small gear than my 39×23 and my biggest big gear is pretty close (enough) to 53×12. I don’t find myself having to crossover from big ring to small ring or vice-versa that often. Maybe that’s more a function of the speeds and terrain I’m riding. Dunno. And I very rarely cross-chain (usually only under dire circumstances).
@BacklashJack
I guess that makes my 50/36 “confused pro.”
@Brian Kelly
This – and I’m old. I vaguely remember being 45. I think.
Damed if I know what this has to do with it but “I think” triggered it………
@BacklashJack
Must admit I’m toying with that on #1 as I’m upgrading to 2016 Campy and I can then switch between compact and super compact relatively easily.
@chuckp
That’s an odd combination. Is there anybody running a 53/34? That would seem like a sprinters set to get them through the mountain stages. I’m considering going to this. Rule violation?
@BacklashJac
the newest generation front mechs really only like to shift about a max of 16t difference. 53/34 is 19t difference. on older mech setups the shifting will be lousy if it works at all, some pro mechanics can get the shifting working well enough with that big of a ratio difference, but the “mid-compact” 52/36 really doesnt run out of top end speed with an 11 on the rear, and a 36 climbs pretty well with a 25 or 28 on the back(ridiculously easy if your brave enough to ride a 30 or 32 on the rear).
I grew up riding in the late 80s through 90s in the Midwest and only ever had a 5242 or 53/39 up front.
then I moved to Colorado, got heavily into CX, got old, quit road racing and became a mostly adventure rider/graveur.
I run a 50/36 (compromise on my CX bike / all-rounder) and an 11/32 out back.
oh and I race both CX and MTB XC on a 1×11 setup. 38×11-32 for cross, 30×10-46 for MTB.
We’ll see if I can post under my new user ID… for whatever reason the good ol’ good ol’ wilburrox got waylaid in to unpostability… no biggies.
So, long ago I was told, “If you have a smaller gear you’ll use it”. Is that not the fact?!? I was running a compact that came on a bike and trying the spin thing and after too many times watching folks crest hills in front of me I swapped to a mid compact using the same bcd of the crank. A strd would not work with that crank. And I like it. 52/36 and running a 28 in back and can climb all day long. Often in the big ring.
I still keep the strd 53/39 on the race bike but I am so very temped to acknowledge it is time to move on and swap to mid compact. I sure do like the 53/39 with 12-25 11 sp cassette though.
Cheers all
I like to spin but I also like the look of a tidy cassette.
Living in Toronto allows me to get away with a traditional setup on my number one.
#1 has a 53-39 paired with a SRAM 11/26 – an interesting compromise that I don’t think Shimano duplicates. This bike is 10 speed.
#2 has a 52-36 paired with an 11/28 but I’ve also picked up an 11/25 that I really must get round to installing. This bike is 11 speed and I’m anxious to try out the nice tight gear ratio changes that this cassette offers.
#3 (CX) on this bike I don’t give a shit what it looks like. I just need to be able to climb through and over whatever lays in my path. 46-36 and a hideous long cage rear mech to accommodate the HUGE 11/32 that I’m rocking out back!
@kixsand
I did same on my CX bike… started out with the 11-28 and long cage group-san 105 RD and for fun swapped out for a 11-32 105 cassette to give it a try. And yep, it’s still on there. And I run 44/34! Sitting in the saddle and spinning up a 20%+ grade of dirt road is something you just have to appreciate being able to do. But, I also appreciate not often having to drop down in to the little ring.
Ultimately I have to believe a 1x is a great set up for a dedicated CX bike (same could also be said for a dedicated crit bike I suppose). Though if a person wants to also ride their CX bike to the park or on dirt roads and such the 2x up front is so much more efficient.
Cheers
@frank–
You know how I feel on the subject of spinning being a trackie-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0
Experiment with gears and cadence options while riding a long steady grade with an experienced group. I imagine everyone’s different, but my most efficient cadence is clearly not 100+. Probably more like 60 – 70. This is not obvious unless the group pace is very even and you are well up the grade so everything (HR, breathing, blood flow, etc.) has reached equilibrium.
At the start of the season, when the papers reported that Merckx, Maertens and Thurau would be using a number twelve sprocket, Boutonnet rushed off to Italy to buy one. A twelve’s what he uses now in our races. He gets teased a little.
“Allez le douze.”
Compact and a 28. Its been a while since I told anyone.
I feel so dirty !
#whateverittakes
“zijn 19 was nog helemaal schoon” was exactly what I was thinking when I started to read the article, so was good to see @frank hadn’t forgotten about it; and if he had, then I am sure @ErikdR would have reminded him.
The old steel bike has 52/42 and original block when up to 23. When I was still in Netherlands, I replaced that with a straight corncob going up to 19 but since living in Switzerland, it’s gone up to 26.
I used to be a masher but now am between 70-90 rpm, I do not like 100 plus, except on the Turbo.
And finally on the knees: running is worse, therefore Rule #42 already protects our knees enough. My knees only hurt when I switched from toeclips to clipless gundecks and I still had to find the right angle for the cleats.
It’s no use running a 53/39 with a 12/25 on the back if you’re never riding fast enough to turn the 53×12 and you can’t get up your local climb in the 39/25. Horses for courses and different strokes for different folks.
I hated riding a compact though – it’s what the bike came with. I was used to the standard triple on my commuter (52/42/30), and liked to descend smashing a 52×11 gear. 50×11 just isn’t the same.
I love my 52/36 and I’ve got a 11-28 on my good wheels and 11-25 on the training wheels. There are some local hills where riding them in the 36×25 is bloody purgatory, 36×28 is bearable.
But the aim is to switch to 11-25 cassettes across the board eventually. And I do use the 52×11 a lot, descending, on the flat sometimes and on the track. And I do get accused of being a masher/grinder but I don’t care.
I had a conversation with a riding friend about this and I said I didn’t like riding a compact because it made me ride like a pussy – I meant having a 34t inner ring as a bail-out.
He took it the wrong way and thought I said that compacts are for pussies – I don’t think that at all – but I know if I have a bail out gear I’ll use it. And then I’ll be going slower. And therefore violating Rules #5 and #10. Not acceptable.
@Dave
GCN (I think) has a video on this: having people ride on a treadmill at different cadences and gearing but at the same speed. Surprisingly they required less power at lower cadences (surprising to the guys doing it).
I’d post it but that would require looking for it, making the link, etc… It’s better to leave a small aspect of suspicion that I’m making it up.
I think everyone has a self selected sweet spot for cadence – mine is 93 rpm +/- a couple of spins per minute.
I also think it is a good idea to force yourself to work either side of your sweet spot on a regular basis so that you can adapt to whatever the road may throw at you. When you turn the pedals slower you’re leaning on leg muscles and easing the load on your cardiovascular systems. Your heart rate comes down a few beats per minute.
I can sometimes get leg cramps if I spin too fast for too long – bringing my cadence down for a spell can help.
Back in the day, 52-42 and a 12 straight through were about the norm. TA did crazy stuff for cyclotouristes. Now, for me being on the wrong side of 50 and cherishing my healthy knees, it’s 50-36 and 11-23. I can get up anything in my neighborhood on that combo. Aesthetically, I’ll take the smaller chainring for a smaller cassette.
This climb is one of a few reasons why I wouldn’t run a 39…
https://www.strava.com/segments/1026043?filter=overall
@wiscot
Yup, grew up racing with 52/42 and 12-25 all over New England in the mid-to-late ’80’s. It’s all we had (or at least all I knew of). Now I ride the Flemish Compact 53/39 (didn’t realize that was a lexicon word until this thread came about) with a 12-27 cassette. Seriously too many 13-18% climbs around here even on my normal route to be running anything less on the rear (Museeuw be fucked!). My knees thank me for it.
And any thread that has a Krabbe’ reference is an automatic win for me. It’s like posting any photo of Tommeke in a thread; you just cannot go wrong with it! Might be time to reread The Rider, it’s been a few years.
@RobSandy
Isn’t there a Rule against posting strava segments/data?
@Haldy
Holy SHITE!!! That was MESMERIZING! What cadence do they hit? Insane.
@Buck Rogers
Well, you know that old expression – ‘nope’.
@RobSandy
Ha! Just giving you crap, Mate!
@Buck Rogers
And I was just giving it back in the form of an Anchorman 2 quote!
@Buck Rogers
By the way, just looked at my strava data for the last time I rode that hill and for the steep bit (avg 14%) I managed an average cadence of 50. Can’t imagine what it’d be like with a 39×25 instead of a 36×28.
@RobSandy
It might be criminal but I have yet to see Anchorman 1, say nothing of Anchorman 2.
And I am probably in the minority here but I joined strava about 4 years ago and used it for almost two years and then I did the single best thing that I have ever done in my sporting life: I deleted my account.
Cannot begin to say how freeing it was and how much more I returned to the bliss of riding like it used to be when I was 17 years old in 1989 and kept pretending I was racing against Fignon and LeMan on my daily rides in VT and NH.
I still track my time and HR on rides but usually throw the cyclocomputer in my back pocket and only check it after the ride is complete.
@Buck Rogers
GREAT ODIN’S RAVEN!
I still do that and I love Strava and my Garmin.
@chuckp
The other night, a few guys on our team ride were talking and some of them are running bodges with 52/36 in front for best of both worlds. (“Yeah, Shimano says it doesn’t work, but I’ve never had trouble… “)
When I first visited Boulder last year I rented a Cervelo R2 for the week and it came with that exact gearing you have, Chuck — it worked well up in the mountains. That trip got me to buy an R3, which came with a more standard 52/38 in front and 11-28 in back. That’s been working fine for me; on easier climbs I tend to sit on the 38 and well down on the block, like my 13 or 14, so I have more room to maneuver. That also somehow feels better than being on my big ring and further up the block even if the actual gear inches are more or less equivalent.
You guys who are poo-pooing the 52/36 realize that in a 52/39 set up you have about 60% duplicate gears between the big and small ring, right? And that by switching to a 52/36, it’s like basically being able to add 3 extra climbing gears without changing the cassette.
I just ordered a new 52/36 for the Bixxis. It’s a first time for me, I’ll have to travel to some mountains to test it out. I live in florida, where the chain never leaves the big ring.