And the 39 Was Clean as a Whistle
I still feel that variable gears are only for people over forty-five. Isn’t it better to triumph by the strength of your muscles than by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting soft… As for me, give me a fixed gear!
— Henri Desgrange
I like to think that any time a rider running a compact punctures, Henri’s spirit is brought just that little bit closer to finding peace; I can only imagine what he might have said about the advent of these sorts of chainsets, let alone the wide-range cassettes we see in wide use today.
The thing that bothers me most about wide-range cassettes is the gaps between the gears. Growing up riding in Minnesota, I trained on a 12-23 and raced on an 12-21 because they were basically a straight block until you got to the lowest gears. Going to the mountains I would reluctantly use a 12-27 but I had to stop myself looking at the back wheel too much because I hated the sight of that 27t dinner plate. I’ve gotten used to what my bikes look like with the 12-25 I’m training on these days, but there are definitely times when I simply can’t find the right gear ratio for the terrain.
Growing up, I was considered a spinner for riding at 80-90 rpm; the thinking at the time was that mashing big gears at low cadences was more efficient. We are greatly influenced by what the Pros are doing, and the famous Cyclists at the time like Hinault and LeMond rode at 60 rpm, so that’s what we punters did, too. Today, I’m still riding at the same cadence, but now people consider me to be a bit of a gear pusher in our modern 100+ rpm climate. I like to flatter myself that the size of my climbing gear intimidates the spinners I ride with; my favorite question to ask them is why they are riding in the little ring already. I usually already know the answer (they are sissies) but I like to ask anyway because I enjoy their slightly bewildered expression before looking at my chainset and realizing that I’m still in the 53. I always give them that special look that makes them wonder whether or not I have noticed that the climb is steep already.
Before spinning high cadences became popular and, shortly after, the abominable 11-28 block became the mainstream choice in gearing, climbers would seek to intimidate one another by how tight they could keep their gearing and how few teeth they needed to use to get over a climb. Climbers like Manuel Fuentes would make sure to always ride in a slightly bigger gear than the rest of the group as a show of defiance to the ferocity of the gradient. In The Rider, Tim Krabbé recounts his suffering on the climbs of the Tour de Mont Aigoual in the South of France. His lowest gear was a 19, one which he considered his “bail out” gear. He was confident he could win the race, and throughout he imagines the onlookers admiring the fact that his 19 never saw the chain, “And his 19 was clean as a whistle,” he imagined them saying.
I personally can’t imagine climbing anything steeper than an overpass in a 19, but I do like to challenge myself to stay off my 39 and ride an entire training route in the 53. And his 39 was clean as a whistle.
@LawnCzar
Pardon me — that should have been, “bodges with 52/34 in front.”
@fignons barber
This.
I’m a bit of a mid-compact evangelist. You only lose 1t on the big ring off a standard but gain 3t on the little ring. I can’t really imagine using anything else.
Even when I’m old and knackered I could just put a 12-30 cassette on…uh oh…think I just lost the room…
@Buck Rogers
I’m on a bit of a bike-book binge right now. Just finished Slaying the Badger and Hunger – the Kelly autobiography. Both great. Krabbe’s book and Rough Ride by Kimmage are on the bedside table. The first two lay out quite explicitly the behind-the-scenes politics and deals that go on in cycling. I’m not naive enough to fail to know that deals are made, crits rigged, dopers exist etc, but to see such activities laid bare is both fun and hard to read. In a way, I’m scared to read the Kimmage book. I just know it’s going to be car crash ugly but fascinating.
Do other sports have such a rich library of books that lift the curtain on what goes on behind the scenes?
@wiscot
Oh Mate! If you have not read The Rider, just fucking drop everything, call in sick, go home and read it. Fucking fantastic. Seriously, the best book on sport I have ever read, esp if you were a road racer in the past (or still are–and I mean real racing, not comparing fucking strava segments).
@Buck Rogers
Fuck off! (smiley)
The anti-V is strong with me today it seems.
@Buck Rogers
So good. Worth the day off from work. (But set aside some time to ride after you’re done.)
—–
“Jacques Anquetil, five-time winner of the Tour de France, used to take his water bottle out of its holder before every climb and stick it in the back pocket of his jersey. Ab Geldermans, his Dutch lieutenant, watched him do that for years, until finally he couldn’t stand it any more and asked him why. And Anquetil explained.
OK … All this talk of gearing, what we ride, and what we used to ride has me motivated to take my steel steed out to ride either today or tomorrow so I can remember riding 53/39 with 12×23. It’ll probably hurt going up some climbs (nothing long, but some 10+% steep stuff).
I have said it elsewhere that, gear spacing aside, but 50/x with 11-y is a higher gear than 53/x and 12-y. Of course if you ride 53/x and 11-y they you are a) very young b) beasting it.
The thing is that no one can tell you are riding 11-y vs 12-y but having 52/36 is visibly more V than 50/34.
@Teocalli
“Beasting it” Man, that’s a UK phrase I haven’t heard in yonks.
“How fast were you guys riding?”
“We were beasting it.”
I used to do a group ride west of Glasgow (Renfrew, Bishopton, Langbank, Kilmacolm, Bridge of Weir, Inchinnan, Renfrew.) All was calm and collected until around Kilmacolm. Then it was every man for himself after that. Beasting it would be a good way to describe the ride home!
This further convinces me to head down to the LBS and get the 52/36. My first step is to get the 11-27 on my new wheels next week and get off the dreaded 12-30 that came with the bike and has coddled me for some time.
Hitting age 62 next week, crappy knees and too fat to climb, I’ve been riding 50/36 here, 12-23 or 12-25 most of the time, 12-27 for hillier stuff and 12-29 for mountains. Ended up with the 50/36 vs34 “regular” compact as that’s what Rotor made for Campag compact. I’m seriously thinking going to a 52/36 to get a little more top end without going to an 11. Not racing, so I don’t really want to give up the middle gears to get an 11…. but the Q Rotor Campag 52 is almost $200… sheesh….
Agree w/all the comments about cadence; my natural rhythm is best 82-87. I can push 75 quite a while, and can spin above 110 for a bit, but I seem to do better at lower vs higher candences. I do think there’s an age element to it — as well as O2 throughput aspects.
Yeah, back in the day 52/42, then 53/42, then 53/39 and on a 12 or 13-24 at the biggest cog I do remember climbing in the 53 on some pretty steep punchy stuff and it was a point of pride not to use the inner. (Cue Springsteen’s “Glory Days”)….
@teleguy57
I bet the average age here at the V site is at least mid-40’s, if not older (it would be interesting to actually know, though I doubt Frahnk has that data).
But anyways, I love to see and hear about everyone still riding and climbing well in their 50’s+. Gives me hope for the future (at least if I permanently stop running like I have for the last 4 months!) since I am now mid-40’s and still loving the bike.
Actually, I think that I have come to love it more in my 40’s than I truly did in my teens. Could just be sentimental bullshit, too on my part?
@Buck Rogers
Are you for real?? I’m closer to 60 than 50 yet can still dish out healthy helpings of V (although perhaps not as often!) Running will eventually tear you down but riding is eternal!
@Buck Rogers
56 going on 57 (June). I was a “climber” in my relative youth. At least amongst the old guys I ride with a lot, I can still climb. I can even best some of the youngsters (but not young guns) every now and again. Obviously, ability trumps everything when it comes to climbing (riding in general) but a lot about climbing is being savvy and smart and just knowing how to climb. Remember what Fausto Coppi said:
@Buck Rogers
Youngster. Doing a round the Isle of Wight Randonnee this weekend. Got a senior discount on the ferry!
Anyone else going round?
@frank
The rides I remember most vividly are the longer days when I feel fresher than I perhaps am. When the hammer swings down I swear I hear my soul cracking. So they do happen, mostly mid-spring. Call it the enthusiasm of winter’s passing plus, perhaps willful, amnesia of what The Hammer can do to you.
@lonefrontranger
Are you using a MTB rear mech on that 32 out back or are you getting that done with a standard road mech? I’d love to get lower than my 27…but it hardly seems like the 28 is going to be that much shorter of a gear.
@frank
You can certainly go 29, 2 teeth is a fair difference on a cassette.
@frank – on the other hand has your account been hacked?
@Buck Rogers
They probably peak out somewhere in the 220’s since they are holding the effort. I know Francois Pervis( french sprinter/kilo racer) has hit 275 rpms in one ripped effort on rollers. Fastest I have ever managed to peak out at is 232. Can hold 200..for a bit. My natural range on the road is between 100-110. So yes, @frank always chuckles when we ride together.
@frank
I don’t know what components you’re running (I know I probably should, but …), but I know my wife’s 10-speed 105 short cage rear derailleur is capable of going up to 30T on the cassette (hers is 12-30). 30 would definitely be a shorter gear than 27.
Other than esthetics, I see little issue whether you ride a 11-28 or a corncob cassette. Just ride them as hard as you can muster. However, you may discover, as I have, that you might be faster up hill with a few more teeth. Leg speed and the correct ratio will result in a faster summit than trying to grind out that macho gear and blowing up. The one climbing route I do every week has climbs of 9.6km, 5.6km, 12km, and 6km in that order. Total ascent is 6461ft. I am running 11-25 rear and semi-compact (confused-pro) up front. My 25 is clean as a whistle. But I am faster overall than when I run a standard crank. My group broke my balls real good when I went semi-compact, but as I rode away from them week after week, they changed their tune.
@Teocalli
That’s a good point yes. 53×12 at 90rpm w/25c tires = 31.3 mph and a 50×11 = 32.23 mph.
That’s according to this cool BikeCalc
@LawnCzar
The Rider is a fantastic read, so many details, nuances. Arguably the definitive desert island cycling book.
@teleguy57
@Buck Rogers
@The Pressure
@chuckp
shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiet, if @Frank keeps the site running long enough I might be in the running to inherit some pretty sweet quivers when you old fogies kick the bucket! Still closer to 30 than 40 for this guy!
Yes age is the fatal flaw in the premise of this article.
I’m in Masters E this year 50-54) but I have ridden a compact for years. Plus since breaking my hip I find it very hard to push a big gear and will flip the switch sooner rather than later.
But there’s not many people here who will drop me on a climb so stick that in your big rings.
@Ccos
Good video! Easy to find. Thanks! Pretty much matches what my legs tell me on long climbs when hunting for the right gear to stay with the group.
@ChrisO
I don’t know what all the fuss is about, 53/39 and 12/23 worked fine for me on the hilly bits in the Chilterns and I’m not exactly young either.
@Mikael Liddy
You’re but a mere pup, only 5 to go to half a ton here. Must be the sea air that keeps me looking so young.
I am currently riding a 52-36 with an 11-25 cassette. This suits my pedaling style of 95-100 RPM very well. I now find myself climbing moderate gradients ( 7.2%) in the 36 and a 17/19 on the back. I am still able to spin this ratio at 90-95 RPM and get to the top fairly comfortably.
This is a far cry from my early riding days when I thought mashing a big gear uphill was macho. The problem was the 100 RPM grind to the top in my lowest gear more than offset the big gear machismo. Marty Jemison suggested that I try lower gears and a higher cadence. Thanks to Marty, I can now ride faster longer by increasing RPM by 15-20.
Call me a sissy or whatever you want for employing lower gears, but it increases my speed and enjoyment on the bike. It also gets me to the top faster and more comfortably.
If this makes me a Rule #90 violator so be it, and blame Marty Jemison.
I recently upgraded from the 50×34 compact that came with the bike to a 53×39 Flemish Compact. Still have the 12×25 on the back. I’ve actually found that it’s easier to hit climbs in the big ring and towards the top of the cassette (not yet crosschaining) than it is to hit them in the little ring at the lower end of the cassette. Not sure why that is.
It took me a few weeks of Rule #5 to convince myself that my skinny pins weren’t going to get any bigger spinning around in the little ring, but now I’m back to spinning ~90 RPM in the big ring. I just wish I didn’t crosschain so early on the cassette in either chainring – it definitely prefers the middle gears.
@Owen
Ha! I think you just made a case for 52/36.
@Rick
Rule #10 trumps anything else in my book.
It’s a balance though – I’m pretty confident on steep climbs (like 12% plus) I’d be slower riding 36×25 than my current 36×28 setup. But I’m also confident that I’m faster riding 36×28 than I would be spinning a 34×28.
Rode the Hollands today. Bigger gears, fewer of them, and narrower gear range (53-39, 12×23, 8-speed) Definitely felt it in the quads afterwards. On the longer hills/climbs at moderate incline, I was fine. Could “spin.” But the steeper stuff was tougher. More out of the saddle riding. Not ashamed to admit that on a few occasions, my riding partners (one old guy and one young gun) just sailed away from me (but, thankfully, waited). And to think I could ride 53-39 with 12×21 in the mountains when I was a much younger pup!
52×36, 12-25 does me fine over everything I’ve had to climb over thus far (Scotland, French Alps, Teide, Gran Canaria) and I’m over 45. 53 x 39 when I was under 45.
@ChrisO
I can attest to that. I was convinced there was a moto on the climb ahead of us.
@kixsand
Something I learned from William on the last Keepers Tour was whenever I was really, truly buggered to drop into the biggest gear and ride out of the saddle in the drops. It really was amazing how well you can keep a good pace rolling without jacking yourself too much further.
@RobSandy
You can’t imagine yourself riding faster?
@wiscot
That’s the first thing that’s been said about compacts that isn’t bat shit crazy!
https://www.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/ed1ec0b6-5d73-40e2-a149-0900336cadce
@Buck Rogers
This. @wiscot, I cannot express how disappointed I am in you that you have not read it yet. FFS.
@LawnCzar
You missed the best part: “If Anquetil hadn’t moved his bidon, he would never have won a Tour de France.
Froome dog looks to be turning a much bigger gear these days. Looks much less like a spider humping a lightbulb.
@Teocalli
Maybe so, but then Frahnk would make merciless fun of me for dropping a T on the big ring. Can’t do it.
@frank
I’m still going to call him a spider humping a lightbulb, because damn that’s catchy.
@frank
Strength training. He’ll be spinning up a storm come July, don’t worry about that.
@frank
This is also a very good argument for not having a saddle bag.
@frank
Hah. Good point.
Actually, I can imagine what it’d be like – me grinding up a very steep hill at 40rpm with my lungs trying to escape out of my mouth. Great, hey?
Interesting take on USA Cycling’s Junior’s gearing for all racers thru 18 years of age:
The max roll out is 26′. So, one turn of cranks and bike distance traveled must be under 26′.
If you want to run a 53,52 or 50 big ring your min cog in the back would be a 15 for the 53 and a 14 for the 52 or 50. Good luck finding an 11 sp cassette that starts at 14 or 15. So, the usual solution was to simply block off the smaller cogs using the derailleur set screw (and that’s not allowed in nat’s events) So, you end up with a ten or eleven speed cassette and wasted cogs/weight and eight or nine speeds to use.
There is a junior’s team I came across when performing roll outs for our local race that runs the usual big rings and gets their cassettes custom made in Italy. Uhh… okay.
Two better solutions are 44×12 with a roll out of 25.4′ on 25c tires or, if want to run an 11 on back one would need a 41×11 (25.8′). The 44 is easy enough CX chainring to use and match up with 12×25 or 12×28 cassettes. Plus, get the weight benefit of smaller rings. Checking out the very cool BikeCalc I can see what my daughter has to spin to keep up with our Tuesday club ride pushing 27+mph avg on a 6-7 mile stretch of flat road. On her 44×13 she’s spinning approx 105 rpm when using 23c tires. I haven’t seen her drop in to full 44×12 yet. And so far she’s made it just over 4 miles before spinning out and having to drop off. I’m always happy to drop off with her as that little run is always a bi***.
Anyways, kids are getting trained early nowadays to spin.
Cheers all
@Randy C
All the juniors who ride with us use blocks with a 13, 14 or 15t smallest cog (depending on their age). The fact that some of them keep up with the paceline when we’re hammering it with those gears is pretty amazing to me.
In fact, one of the junior girls has been finishing with the bunch in vets races (because they stick the women and vets in together and she’s good enough to race against senior women), on junior gears, in fast races. And her max speed for her sprint isn’t much behind mine. Chap-eau!
@RobSandy
I need to try that Anquetil technique. Particularly if climbing out of the saddle, anything on the bike becomes reciprocating weight wasting energy.
@RobSandy
Outa curiosity I was looking at the British Cycling rules re: Jr’s gearing and talk about a little complicated ?!? Anyways, there was a link to an outfit: BBB Cycling I found that is putting together 11-sp cassettes like 13/25 and 14/27. That’s a 14 straight thru to 21 then 23, 25, 27. That’s pretty cool! It’s not the bro-sets or group-sans that are taking care of juniors. This is very interesting.
But you’re right about these kids learning to spin. When they get the strength imagine what they’ll do spinning the bigger gears some day as adults. Yowza.
@Oli
Jesus that looks so much better though. Holy crap balls.
@RobSandy
I had a light day today, and what really amazes me is that riding climbs at a slower pace in lower gears feels 80-90% as hard as climbing at a higher speed/intensity. Lower gears to do not really make climbs as easy as they should, it seems. Weird.
@RobSandy
Yes!
@Randy C
There have always been gear restrictions on juniors and while they could build their cassettes more easily back then than they can now, the restrictions were the same. Kids learn to spin, and then they grow up and become hard men and women who push monster gears up grades.