LeMaster of the V-Locus
Finding The V-Locus is something of an extension of the Goldilocks Principle; bars set somewhere between Sit Up and Beg and a face-plant, saddle height somewhere between speed skater and Baryshnikov, and reach somewhere between a unicycle and the Batpod. This is art more than it is science, a process of iteration and refinement. And everyone knows “iteration and refinement” is the formal way of saying “we’re making this up as we go along.”
We are in the midst of a Sit Up and Beg Epidemic, and with that comes an emphasis on the rare rider who looks completely natural on their machine. There is a sense of ease that belies the power the rider generates; the position must allow for balance between opposing forces experienced while riding on two wheels, not to mention the sophisticated coordination required to coax a system of muscles that can only push or pull into generating power through a perfectly circular pedal stroke.
Cyrille Guimard is known to be a kind of grand master of il posizione, having been responsible for developing all three of the dominant Grand Tour riders of the late seventies and eighties. These three riders – Bernard Hinault, Laurent Fignon, and Greg LeMond – shared a common theme: their positions on the bike was so beautiful it has been scientifically proven to have cured infertility in women who watched them race, indirectly accounting for the baby boom in the 70’s and 80’s.
Of the three, LeMond stood out as being the most perfect, pioneering the use of the wind tunnel to refine his position to maximize the balance between physiology and aerodynamics in order to wring the most V from himself and his machine. He had the advantage of living in an era when frames were tailor-made like a suit on Savile Row but he used it to great effect, tweaking seat tube angles to maximize use of his long thighs and stretching his top tube to account for his long reach reach. In America at least, it’s easy to pick out riders who took a page out of his book on positioning, riding long and stretched out positions and mashing gears heels-down at 60rpm while gently rocking their shoulders. It brings a tear of joy to my eyes whenever I see it.
In our day of cookie-cutter carbon frames, we’re often left to refine our position through stem length and seatpost setback, but that’s no excuse for allowing us not to Look Fantastic and natural on the bike. Take heed of the Apostle LeMond and don’t stop tweaking until you have found your V-Locus.
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Contrary to popular held opinion around here, my first post on VM wasn’t my inability to define gender (@unversio, that photo is of a chick holding the seat of a dude if I’m not mistaken).
It was me asking if current LeMond isn’t more like Vegas Elvis (before I knew the term LeMelvis). I bring that up because it was really hard for me to ask that question even then when we all thought LeMan, well, wasn’t. How he looked on the bike was always something I wanted to emulate. Just because someone has the ability to crush it, does not mean they look good doing it. Matter of fact, very few look great or have V-Locus. LeMan ALWAYS had it.
I mean, check this. He’s in a sport coat, jeans and is all grey. And he still has it.
@minion
Nail. Head. Thank you.
@girl
The VMH was so fucking stubborn about her saddle, mostly because it was only recently that they started making real racing saddles for women and not cushiony things made with lead rails. But boy oh boy, was she happy when she gave in a got one.
30 years into cycling, I’m still tweaking my position little bits at a time; saddle forward a mil or two, cleats back a mil. Saddle backwards a mil or two, rotate bars down a degree. And so on.
And with every change, the bike comes into the living room for a few days.
@unversio
Which one is Marcus? I feel like its probably the one with the ass cheeks falling out the bottom of the shorts.
@scaler911
I was going to post the same photo – what a great shot. And stunning bike.
More LeMan goodness.
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Have I ever mentioned that this is my favorite cycling photo ever?
@minion
@G’rilla
That’s Fränk on the left, Andy on the right if I’m not mistaken
@Optimiste
Hey guys, me too. How’d you go holding pelvis forward? At the moment it’s all conscious. You do exercises for the core?
Since rooting my back up big time at work December last year, and spending quite some time with physio to get better, bike posture is a huge factor in relation to position.
Picture from an old book I was showing my daughter the other night.
Sorry, here’s the pic.
@frank
My VMH discovered her true match is the Fizik Arione that graced my bike for the past year. Out went the fat, cushioned Specialized stock monster, and in went the sleek, narrow Arione, more fitting her petite 44kg frame. My mother just replaced her well-worn Selle Italia SLR for the naked-carbon, 95g Selle Italia Tekno. Both completed a 600km weekend pain-free two weeks ago. Just goes to show that “women’s” saddles are bullshit.
I’ve come to realize that, in a way, a good position is all about the saddle. I rode with the for two years Arione and while I thought I was happy, it took me a spell on a Cobb 170 to realize what I was missing out on. I’ve found myself spending hours comfortably in the drops hammering with a flat back, whereas I previously had to lift my arse every once in a while to get things moving again. Now I only need to find a prettier saddle that fits as well…
@tessar Your velomihottie rides with your velomimommy? That’s really cool. Seriously. Sounds like you have a great, active, cycling family. And your mom rides a naked carbon saddle? She must be a total velominatus. I’m pretty sure my mom hasn’t looked at her bike, other than to move it out of the way for her rubbermaid bins of wrapping paper, in years.
Had the LeMond book of Bicycling back in the ’80’s and based my position on that. When I got back into cycling in the mid aughts, I was able to dig up LeMond’s bike fit formulas on the interwebs and match it up to newer bikes and equipment. Once things were sorted, it felt like a sort of homecoming, much of the muscle memory was still there. And I’ve had a couple of professional fits since then, but both only made minor adjustments, saying that the position was pretty spot on already.
@DexterSellers
I know trackies sometimes use clipless pedals with toe straps to keep from pulling out. I guess there will be some riders who feel the need until manufacturers present pedal cleat systems that are fully locked in, ie infinite spring tension.
Wish that I had enough power for that to be of concern.
@sthilzy
I just started focusing on it until it was sort of habitual. It’s still not completely drilled in, and spending more time on That Fucking Mountain Bike this season of year, it’s probably not getting any more habitual at the moment. But I did a half-dozen days this summer of around 160km, and my whole back feels much better and I can be lower in the drops for longer if I keep that pelvic girdle rotated forward a bit.
With my history of back issues (compression fracture, ruptured disk) I should be doing regular core work, but I don’t.
@PeakInTwoYears
I was fighting severe neck and should pain on any ride over 1 hour. At first I thought I was too stretched out and needed a shorter stem, but I have a longish torso and had been fit by a custom frame builder, so that didn’t seem like the right remedy. Daily stretching helped, but I was still nowhere near the V-Locus. Somewhere during my interneting I read or saw something about rotating the pelvis forward.
I gave it a try and, for me at least, all the cosmic tumblers fell into place. I could reach my hoods easily, my arms had a proper bend, my head lifted up, my back flattened (although certainly not LeMan flat). I was able to push my saddle back 10mm and drop my stem 10mm.
Core strengthening helps (when I actually do it), but the rotation became habitual because the alternative is useless pain. Anytime I feel the slightest twinge in my neck and shoulder, or I realize my arms are straight while on the hoods, it’s a good bet I need to rotate the pelvis a bit.
@sthilzy
Take care. Adopting an artificial position is more likely to result in damage than relieve it. The key really is getting your setup right so that your body naturally adopts a comfortable and effective position. Having a nearly right setup and then forcing something is more likely to create problems than fix them. Every body is different and trying to force your body into the image of someone else is not a good idea.
@DexterSellers
You can see those straps in some of the 89 Tour photos too. They’re not attached to the pedals, just around his shoes for extra support/compression.
During the transition to clipless it took a while for shoe design and construction to catch up to pedal technology. You could buy commercially available straps to do the same thing:
I had some Duegis around that time that came with similar straps. If you were using the shoes with clips you didn’t need them, but with clipless they kept the shoes from stretching out and the soles from tearing off.
@DexterSellers
It would be a dream to find out for sure, but his shoes were lace-ups with a cover and dual Velcro straps; the toe clip straps we’re just for extra support.
and they were Time pedals, not Look.
@sthilzy
I don’t rotate my hips forward, but I do stretches to keep my hamstrings flexible and core exercises to keep the midriff strong to help support and stabilize the bike, keeping my back muscles from having to do the work.
May I suggest that Francesco had a good understanding of how to find his V-locus. One of my favorite flat back rider positions of all time.
@imakecircles It’s not about pulling out of the pedal. Track cyclists use toe straps to keep the shoe’s upper from pulling off the sole when they’re going at it full speed.
@Teocalli
Good point. In total agreement there. The transformation of my position this year wouldn’t have happened without getting the right setup (for the 1st time ever) this Spring. But a lifetime of the wrong setup established some very bad habits. So I was fighting adopting my natural position because I was still doing what was familiar (and painful). As you said, every body is different, and what worked for me was based on many factors which may or may not apply to anyone else.
@G’rilla I hate when that happens. You’d think they’d have a better glue.
Several months ago, I received a complement that my position was reminiscent of Michele Bartoli. What a complement! I always thought his to be one of the most elegant, flat-back positions. Despite the fact that he competed smack dab in the middle of the EPO era, you have to admit he was a classy rider.
@pistard
And Aerolites, no less. Rode those for a while. Great stack height and ultra weight weenie, but a pain to set up, funky engagement/disengagement that varied with temperature, and miserable underfoot when off the bike.
@Lukas
Indeed. Defines roleur for me; I can identify with a cyclist who looks like he’s actually allowed to eat once in a while vs the skeletons on a saddle.
This post is so beautiful and true that *it* brings a tear to my eye. Funny: it describes perfectly the “fit and feel” of my three (remaining; of 5) Rivendells: 2 road customs and a Rambouillet: butt back, reach long, bar neither too low nor too high, torso cantilevered over top tube, hands resting lightly on hoods or ramps or hooks, pedaling from behind the bb with heels dropped. Funny because 9/10 of the situpandbeg epidemic can be traced directly back to Rivendell.
@Nate
Hence my obsession, but sadly no means of which to follow through, of Darren Baum’s creations.
WANT one!
@tessar
It doesn’t go to show women’s saddles are bullshit; it goes to show that no one should tell anyone else what saddle to ride.
You might have noticed that your girlfriend has a different anatomy than you do. This is a delightful discovery, and one which will yield no end of entertainment.
In your explorations, you will find, however, that the sensitive bits on girls are in a different place than on men, and depending on how sensitive those bits are, the saddles will make an incredible bit of difference on how much fun riding a bike is.
@frank
Exactly – a woman can find comfort on what’s nominally a “men’s” saddle, depending on her specific anatomy, and vice-versa. However, whereas the men have anything from this to this to choose from, women-dedicated options are almost always heavier, more basic options. When my mother got her first SLR, she was simply looking for a sub-250g, Rule #61 compliant option for her climbing bike. The stock monster on my girlfriend’s Specialized weighed nearly as much as a carbon frame and was as wide as a sofa. Women don’t need wide, plush, cut-out saddles any more than men do: The basic concept of “you sit on the, uh, sit bones” is same for everyone, and the specifics of where these and the sensitive bits are located is different for everyone.
Some manufacturers haven’t really embraced the fact that some women like to ride hard. You’re complaining about the Sit Up And Beg epidemic, but try finding a frame with a head-tube short enough for a 155cm girl that likes a bit of drop! It proved to be quite difficult, and even then we resorted to a -35 degree stem to make it work on one of the bikes.
There’s also the issue of pain thresholds and scales. I only realized the Arione wasn’t ideal because I happened to try something that I liked better, but if I hadn’t done that I’d never have known that I’m not perfectly comfortable. Others might find it unbearable to begin with, while others still might not even register the difference. I believe devoted cyclists, if only because they actively seek pain and suffering (of different body-parts), are probably less likely to complain about mild discomforts.
@marko
My mom doesn’t quite give enough of a damn about the specifics of skewer-positioning and storage locations to be a Velominatus (though the rear bottle holder is gone because of the new carbon rails – win!) – she’s more bothered with Rule #5 and #9, though more often in the desert than the rain:
Though her main riding is done on the triathlon bike, which already scarred Frank’s retina once so I’ll refrain from posting that one again.
And yep, cycling is quite a central theme to our life. My little brother is also part of it now – soon he’ll get his own bike:
@tessar
Not that I want to make you feel uncomfortable or anything but if it’s the one of her at the Abu Dhabi Triathlon then post it and let Frank go blind for all the rest of us would care – no reasonable man could object.
I sometimes feel like when all the bikes are cleaned, tuned, and set up well I’ll play with positioning just because I haven’t worked on the bikes in too long. Do others experience this Idle Hands position micromanaging?
Also, who can account for the builds of LeMan and Badger? LeMan’s thighs and arms look as if he must have lifted weights and he was the type of rider who could win just about anything. Seems like most riders today have the muscle mass of a pre-teen female. That calendar photo of Phinney, he doesn’t look like he could do a pushup. Aside from classics kings, and Sagan, most modern PROs look very different. Just the evolution of weight/watts thinking?
@Ron
I have always looked to the past pro riders due to this. I am a more muscular build. Almost identical to Mark Cavendish. And the endless ravings these days about loosing weight or reaching a “climbers weight” always left me thinking. How did the some of the most iconic racers do it? Merckx didn’t look like he had the muscles of a pre-teen female. Neither did Leman, Badger, or Moser.
Just caught up with this thread. I grew up trying to look like LeMan on the bike, but then I ended up being 2 meters tall – so no matter what I want to look like, I end up looking like a bear on a circus bike. Regardless, in my head I look like The Man, and thats what counts.
My favorite LeMond picture (which hangs in my office):
@tessar
My VMH got a woman’s Fizik with her Scott and was determined it would suit her. Much pain later and certain bits out of action for several weeks she is now a proud owner of a Selle Italia gel flow diva.
@tessar
@teleguy57
A riding buddy still uses them. Bought a bunch before they went out.
@frank
Looks like those guns could break those tubes.
@tessar
Same goes for women’s frame geometry – biggest load of shit. VMH rides a fucking 12cm stem on the rain bike, and a 13cm monster on the other. Slammed. If you need to go smaller, go 650c wheels; its actually not a bad option if she’s that small.
A -35deg stem? Where are you measuring from? The fork? Jesus, that’s some drop on a stem. I thought an Ergostem was the only option once you got past 17 degrees.
Good point. Never stop exploring different products.
Which reminds me of the North Face slogan, “Never Stop Exploring.” When I worked in the store where I met Marko, a co-worker would always place a giant D over the “r”. Made me laugh every time.
@GreenGiant
For me, that was his peak. Beating Kelly in a sprint to begin with, but don’t forget he also beat EPO Ground Zero Konyshev as well.
And in Rule #9 conditions. After chasing down Fignon at Mach V.
That was his perfect race.
@frank
Of which he almost dropped out multiple times throughout the race b/c he felt like shit for the majority of it. Wonder what a few might have done this year if they had stayed the course?
Agreed though, his most perfect race.
Wow, that picture…
There’s a whole lot of emotion running through it.
@imakecircles
Dura-Ace SPD – R. Metal cleats and enough spring tension that you’d never get enough force by twisting your ankle to accidentally pull a pedal.
The trackies use the straps for a couple of reasons – if they snap the toe off a plastic cleat, or it’s just worn and they pull the toe side out, the strap keeps the shoe near enough to the pedal that they can re-engage quite easily. The other failure is accidentally rotating out, and the strap does the same thing.
@Rom that’s the saddle I had. It was awesome. I couldn’t tell you the name of my new saddle but one week one and we are getting along just fine.
@All, why does a wind trainer make your bike position feel so much different (apart from the obvious)?
I ge the feeling a bunch of blokes discussing women’s saddles is like a pack of virgins exchanging their best pick up lines. All the best intentions but not much of a fucken clue, really.
@girl Is your bike level on the trainer?
@minion
That’s funny. But try being a girl and having to explain/describe to your male coach or male lbs owner how you are uncomfortable on your saddle. A whole lot of awesomeness that is not.
Yes, it’s level.
@PeakInTwoYears
Someone suggested a longer stem and that has made all the difference in the world (IMHO). I can ride that bike for hours and hours with no lower back pain.
@cyclebrarian
I went to longer stem for a while and had issues at the base of my neck, which went away when I went back to the shorter stem. At some point I’ll just pony up for a good fitting when I’m in Portland.