The Curse of Four Millimeters
I don’t know how a guy who shows off the better part of a half meter of seat post comes to the conclusion that his saddle is too low, but that precise thought occupies an enormous amount of time. Ever closer looms the minimum insertion point on my seat pin, yet I am irrevocably bound to explore its limits.
I actually wish my legs were shorter; long legs are only useful for the anorexic models who distort our youth’s self-image and for skipping steps on staircases. At the same time, I’ve spent the majority of my life wondering if my seat post was slipping; has my saddle always felt this low? In previous years, I have known better; the question will claw its way into my mind, usually when I’m struggling on a climb, and I will look at the strip of tape I’ve stuck around my seat pin just above the clamp and note that it has not curled up due to the pin sliding through. The saddle is at the right height.
These days, I’m riding a fizik seat post and fizik seat posts come with this cool little sleeve to mark the height. It works perfectly, apart from the fact that it doesn’t curl up like the lowly electrical tape does; were the seat pin to slide, the sleeve would simply side with it. Which means I have to judge the distance between height demarcations on the post to decide if it’s slipped or not. It used to be higher; I’m climbing this badly because the saddle slipped down a bit.
These are easy lies we tell ourselves; that the lack of performance is borne of a problem in our setup – our position or our equipment. Merckx was famously obsessive about seat height, why shouldn’t I be? I just make a casually deliberate stop at the roadside, swiftly raise the saddle a bit, and stage a Cyclocross Remount – the only way a Cyclist should ever board their bicycle once the ride has begun.
But then I got better at judging the marks on the fizik post, and was sure it wasn’t sliding. But still my power was waning and surely it wasn’t my form because I’ve been riding like a thing that’s been riding a lot. Perhaps my position on the bike is evolving, perhaps I should reconsider my stem length and slide my saddle forward to get more over the bottom bracket. Except that I’ve ridden happily in roughly this position for years – and in roughly the same form.
Then came the rains; they had been lacking this Spring, almost to a fault. It had been several weeks or even a few months since I’d been astride my Nine Bike. I set off, and was struck instantly by how comfortable I was, how fluidly the pedals were spinning, and how easily I gobbled up the climbs. Was I peaking today instead of in the usual Two Months, or was there something more sinister going on? There was no question of longer stems and saddles sliding forward; I had the usual sensation that I was in my element, that I was born to be in this position on two wheels and that walking was a locomotion I was leaving behind in my short-lived evolution as a human being.
Knowing the geometries of the two bikes – #1 and The Nine Bike – are virtually identical, I decided to revisit the measurements on #1. I measured the Nine and checked them against #1; the only difference was that the saddle on the #1 had crept up a whopping 4mm. Four millimeters over a saddle height of of 830. I climbed aboard her and set off, amazed at how good she felt. Immediately the power was back, the inherent comfort of riding a bike returned.
All over a lousy 4mm.
Fellow Velominati: we are all students of La Vie Velominatus. We must look to the future and seek to evolve; to experiment with new positions, new techniques, and with new technology. But we must also look to the past and recognize what worked well, when did change affect how well we ride our bikes or how much we loved it? To recognize the boundary between the evolution within us as athletes and to adapt to what feels good over time and those that erode our capacity as riders can be difficult. Sometimes we need a Sensei to help us recognize the difference, other times it will come to us through solitary meditation.
Embrace change, but also keep it at a distance. We should always be ready to return to the past and rediscover what worked before and apply it to the chance we face in the future. Vive la Vie Velomiantus.
I can’t find my ideal height, up and down like a yo-yo on a weekly basis. Changing between MTB and road bike doesn’t help either, as I prefer a lower saddle on MTB for heel drop and control.
@Sam
Yeah see I think I’ve found your problem.
In all seriousness, I always feel awkward on the commuter, especially after riding #1 in the morning before work. I just can’t bring myself to slam the stem on the commuter. Area of personal growth maybe
Excellent post.
I’ve been struggling with bike fit for ages, even visiting a retul witchdoctor to see if I could cure certain ailments… like my penis feeling like it doesn’t exist (it does, I check thoroughly each morning).
I’ve found my perfect saddle by trial and error (thanks prologo, fuck you SMP) but the height is an issue.
I’m a fatty and when fatty climbs, fatty hurts; this particular fatty loads up in the quads, mid to high up in them. Do I need to add 2mm height? Do I need the saddle forward a bit more to get over the BB a bit more?
It’s a vicious, consuming voodoo that can, and will, wake you up at night with ideas that see you scurry from the bedroom to adjust your bike, much to the VMH disdain.
After dropping a nice bit of jingle on a mad scientist of a guy to perform my bike fit, I have been terrified to adjust anything for a year. Recently I have dropped my stem, and was nervous as hell I’d be mid climb suffering some unforeseen pain in a mysterious location. Two days, 220 km, all is well. Change embraced….
@Owen
Slam it … dropped mine last year and haven’t looked back. I have found that the more completely -badass I look the less grief I get from drivers… also I made an interesting observation this winter that on Rule #9 days I have never had anyone chirp / honk / swerve at me in fact I get more room and courtesy … maybe it is simply Rule #9 effect, where a guy drives by and goes holy Fuck that dude is hard as nails, and if he is out here in the sleet and snow 20km from downtown I best not Fuck around with him …
@frank That fizik doughnut thing is like a valve stem cap: it serves no useful purpose, especially if you already mark your saddle height with tape. Please dispose of it.
I often think my saddle is too low. When I raise the saddle my undercarriage tells me otherwise. On the other hand, my knees are not telling me my saddle is too low.
My knees were telling me I was too low. My undercarriage begged to differ. It was a problem throughout 2013. In December I got a fit from the cleats up. I’m further back, I was not too low, I was too far forward. As a result my knees are fine, my perineum is happy and I have found power I never knew I had! Should have spent the money for a fit years ago!
Hrmm. The illusive perfect fit. I felt pretty good 18months ago but wanted to make sure I wasn’t builing up to an RSI so got said Retul witch doctor to check things out. Minor mods, too short and high a stem, seat too far back. Fast forward 18months and I have a case where my left quad & ITB ache/burn when the right is happy. For three or four months now I have not known what to do about it and done nothing. There is a “guru” by the name of Steve Hogg down south but he’ll cost me just over $1k for the flights and fit. I’ve been thinking the cleats are to blame, should I get rid of the red and go back to yellow and I need shims? That’s a lot of coin to drop to be told… “oh, your fit is fine”.
So here I am, reading this article. I think I will take your advice, pull out the Retul fit chart and check #1 to make sure all is where it should be…
@Puffy tried the blue cleats?
My Retul fit really only got me in the ballpark, which I found odd considering how expensive it is.
Nice one Frank! Appreciate your articles.
I know how you feel. Today, I dropped my seat by 2.5mm. That’s the width of the allen key I needed to adjust the sleeve on the post. The seat post is just right now. It’s enough to drive you mad!
I wonder what height it will need to be next week?
I’ve done circa 400 fits now all with happy and quite a few cases people feeling faster and more powerful. Bike fitting is a wonderful thing it can really transform your riding, doing the research to find someone in the know will pay off and expect to stump up between £250-£500 depending on how many parts you require. I do a lot of fitting in relation to having good posture much like how were all told to sit as children, try to rotate the hips and flatten the back, unless your spine has developed a natural curve then that has to be taken into account, I can’t straighten a desk bound worker. Noone should try and fit you to a bike it’s about getting the bike to fit you in a comfortable yet efficient position. Find someone local and hopefully they will work with you over time to nail your position, hell I get repeat customers every 6 months
@Frank These are sage words indeed, my friend. Saddles, or rather saddle height, angle and setback are my nemesis. Saddle sores have recently become a painful riding companion and I’m never convinced of my position, even though it’s been checked and rechecked to be where it should be, to have me back to that comfortable feeling you expressed so well. I may well be over-thinking it, but right now, it’s a pain in the proverbial. Time to get right back to basics, maybe.
I have an ISP on my #1 bike – I prefer not to think about this sort of thing…
@Steve G
That’s all Retul or similar systems will ever do IMHO. It seems to define fit based on certain parameters, not on a riders individual morphology. I had one done and was being told things such as “we typeically like to see your leg travel between x and y degrees.” It smelled of snake oil a bit.
@Puffy could be your left glut medius isn’t firing, has gone weak. I’ve found this to be extremely common in cyclists and runners. (glut med takes leg to side, which as cyclists we don’t do much of. It then gets weak and traumatised when surrounding muscles fatigue on a long or hard ride and we ask it to step up and do some work. glut med then goes weak and ITB has to step up causing us itb/ quad pain or knee probs.
Fit is a constant evolution, the fitter I have become over the last four years of training, my position has become higher at the saddle, lower at the front and longer, yes aero is everything, you go faster for the same energy.
Timely article. My seatpost on N1 slips over time, it is tightened to the max 5NM, anyone have a solution that does not risk cracking the frame?
Also still aspiring to this one…
@Deakus Presumably carbon paste is a no-no (if it is carbon). Probably stating the obvious but I guess you have tried getting everything meticulously clean using alcohol wipes – inside the seatpost as well as just the post itself? I had some slippage that was cured with meticulous cleanliness – well so far anyway touch wood.
@Deakus @Teocalli Why would carbon paste be a no-no? If it is carbon then yes Deakus you need some carbon grip paste to help it hold – it’s just a gel with little crunchy bits to give it some hold but it doesn’t hurt the carbon.
@Frank A measurement scale in millimetres on the seatpost is very useful (but maybe not cool enough for Fizik). I know where mine is (67.5), I know if it slips and I know where to put it when I have to re-assemble the bike after travelling without the need of collars or tape. Failing that you could use a marker pen – I do that with my bars.
In general I am amazed at the importance of a few millimetres.
A few years ago I started getting terrible pain in one knee. I had a week or so off the bike and it went away so I thought it must just be a temporary injury. But as soon as I got back on the bike it came back almost immediately, to the point where I could hardly ride.
The only thing I could think of was the tiny adjustment I had made to my saddle height about two months before. It was an ISP so it was done by adding spacers of a couple of millimetres each up to a max of about 1.5cm. I had added about 2mm and thought no more of it.
I took the spacer out and the pain went away immediately. Amazing that a tiny change could make so much difference.
@Deakus It also helps to clean and then grease the bolt and washer of your seatpost clamp . That way friction in tightening the bolt won’t affect the torque reading of your wrench .
@all Thanks for the tips, I will give it a clean in the first instance then re-tighten it and see if that works.
@ChrisO I may well be wrong but I was under the impression that carbon paste etched the gloss surface somewhat.
Fit done and dusted on #1 in January this year, shims, seat up and forward and feeling better. Time on bike now is the only cure for how shit im riding.
Rode the VMH’s bike with kiddy seat tonight with #2 child on board. Mrs “Cuda” is 5ft farkall and Im just a bees dick under 6ft so I definately looked and felt like Froomy tonight – refer said spider rooting a lightbulb.
May get the spanners on it and slam that stem and whip the seat post up, she’ll never know!
There’s a prevalent myth that raising one’s bars and lowering one’s saddle will make a bike more comfortable, leading to the prevalence of galaxy-class headtubes and spacer stacks on many bikes.
Does this work for some people? Sure. If you have very limited flexibility (i.e. you can’t touch your toes) low handlebars are going to be a challenge. Riding a beach cruiser? Sit up and beg, by all means. It giveth and taketh away, though: questionable aesthetics aside, raising the bars is going to mean a ton more road shock beating up your middle back.
Once upon a time, under the influence of my LBS and Grant Peterson, I too used the sit up and big position. I had terrible problems with my back, especially in the Thoracic area.
As an experiment, I got out my old fixed gear, slammed the stem, raised the saddle, and never looked back. Back pain issue = solved.
@antihero On a similar “got out my old xxx” thought, I’ve been thinking that riding The Butler with clips makes me focus on a smoother stroke as you can’t rely on pulling/pushing against the cleat. Do cleats make us lazy and hide poor technique so should we spend some time training on clips/flats?
@antihero +1. I can’t slam completely due to neck problems, but sitting up just puts way too much pressure on the backside and back.
@Teocalli
Gloss surface ???
The paste is applied on the seatpost where it fits inside the tube.
I don’t think it would do any more surface damage than a clamp or the act of inserting the post in the tube, plus it reduces the risk of cracking the post by over-tightening. Carbon seatposts tend to be matte anyway for reasons of grip and scratching as they go in and out of the seat tube.
@antihero I had somewhat of a similar experience: chronic shoulder and neck pain on long rides all through my college riding days. After I got a new stead 8 years ago I had the old bike repainted but the stem needed replacement and I could only get one 2cm longer. Presto, no more neck pain. I also just set the repainted rig up by feel and remarkably the thing has the exact measurements (reach, seat height) as the newer bikes.
My position has also gotten much lower over the years although my flexibility continues to suck.
To see the look on my mechanics face when I asked “Maybe we can put a set screw in thru the seat tube to keep the post from migrating?” We put in a complex Tecate beer can shim to keep all in place. Marked the edge of the shim with a silver Sharpie — silver Sharpie vanishes during Rule #9.
@VeloSix
I called it “cheating back” the millimeters here and there after my basic fit with a trusted pal at the LBS. The 0 degree 90mm stem (recommended by LBS pal) begat a -17 degree 130mm stem that begat 140mm. Now I’m wanting to “cheat back” up a few millimeters on the seatpost — keeping the same setback.
@Deakus Finish Line Fiber Grip
@Der Hammer
Thanx. Every little Nm helps.
@Teocalli
Gloss will slip against gloss — paste is supposed to add grit.
@ChrisO
Using Fiber Grip under the stem face plate as well, especially with carbon bars, but with alloy also.
This winter, while bored as fuck on the trainer, I finally got around to flipping (to the negative direction) and slamming the stem. Through now, no sore back on rides of even moderate length. Seat post is at the minimum insertion point and I keep thinking maybe I should get a longer one, but the knees don’t hurt, and I feel like I get good extension, so I’m hesitant.
The other big adjustment this year was cleat position on my shoes. I was having a hell of a time with my feet going numb on any ride longer than about an hour. Moved the cleats as far back as they’ll go on the shoes and whaddya know, no more numb feet.
I just can’t justify the cost of getting a fit. That’s money that I could save for a new wheelset.
Ha! I was just practicing my road shoes/road bike ‘cross mounts yesterday. Well, not actually repetitively practicing them, but after a natural break and out in the country with no one to see me daintily running in road shoes with exposed cleats…I remounted via The Leap of Faith.
I have a question – do you lads always like to be able to go foot down while seated in the saddle? Via some of the equations for seat height, I can barely touch on some of my bikes. Should you always be able to?
Tinkerer here as well. Up down, higher, lower. I also try to keep the height close between bikes, but I actually like a bit of variety. Each bike is a bit different, nothing crazy, but makes me feel like a rich man when I can benefit for a wealth of fits.
Are you sure you have not just grown another 4mm taller?
I have a good video to post about this (well, vaguely, at best, borderline relevant), but shalln’t until you explain how I post a vid link in it’s full glory as a large coloured square with a white triangle in the middle for go. I am only able to post a series of gobbledeletters as a page link, which let’s face it, no-one will be arsed to look at
One of my partners at work was musing how her husband, a big bike fan, allegedly, marvelled at how fussy Phillip Deignan was, as he had to have his seat set at exactly the right height, to the nearest 1mm…… I didn’t know what to say
@Teocalli
Its the only way you’ll ever get your post to stay in place without over-torquing, mate. I haven’t noticed any etching I’d attribute to the past, but seatposts all will show the signs of insertion and the inside of the frame will as well. Its just par for the course.
I use carbon paste on all seat posts regardless of material and will even use it on other parts that are having some unwanted movement to avoid over-torquing.
@frank I bow in reverence to your superior knowledge oh holy one. As my LBS set up my #1 when I bought that last spring and I’ve never had the post out I’ve actually no idea whether they used paste. My #2 (9 bike) was second hand and did slip but it had grease on the post (??) when I bought it, thorough cleaning and that has not slipped. Though by build I’m more in the Shetland Pony than Shirehorse category.
@Ron
In a word. Nope.
It’s because you ride carbon,it slips,you never know where you are height wise,steel is the answer- Thompson seat post & Reynolds tubing,bit of grease,ride on in style at the same height every day.
@frank
Such as? Stem to carbon steerer? Carbon face plate to alu bars? Can’t think of too many others . . .
@wiscot
Used 4 small dabs under new Mavic cleats while positioning and mounting. It held the cleat in position while inserting hardware — and is adding a stronger fix to the shoe.
@Triathlete
I’m surprised that name isn’t corrected to be spelled with a “y,” kind of like how fizik gets refashioned.
Also, don’t be afraid of letting some spaces slip in after those commas. I think you have over-torqued you sentence.
@VeloSix
All that bikefit whitchdoctory stuff seems like such a load to me, but I’ve also never tried it mostly because it seems like such a load to me. Its beautifully symmetric logic.
@Ron Thanks Ron, was that you or your sentence?
I tweak around with my saddle height a lot. Made a big move up this spring, and while it seemed to help my power up hills (no idea if it did in actual watts, I don’t use a power meter), it made the upper part of my calves pretty sore. Guess I wasn’t engaging those muscles.
@Nate
Its a classy looking bit of kit and keeps water from running in there. Also it eliminates the need for tape…
Your saddle is too low, which I mentioned to you in SFO. The undercarriage thing doesn’t make sense to me unless you move it so high you can’t touch your pedals…Maybe your hamstrings are inflexible?
Never trust positioning advice diagnosed over the internet.
@Puffy
Also, it could be a stretching thing. I’ve had something similar and using a massage stick on my hammie fixed it for me, in addition to giving me loads of extra power (those things rule).
@Mike_P
Are the saddle sores new? I hate to even ask but you’re washing your bibs every time you ride, right? Your fit shouldn’t necessarily be causing those – that would seem more like a saddle/shorts/ass compatibility matter.
@trenchfoot
Well look at the big brain on @trenchfoot! What should one do to fix this?